America's middle class was outsourced to India and China for greedy CEOs to pay themselves millions in salary & bonuses (illegal, companies)
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I would bet the Op either ould have or did cheer the outsourcing of japnese atuomakig to US in the 80's > Mnay actaul want to return to the 50;s when America wher the outsource of jobs aroud the world because of the war.We created the world economy and now whine.
In my humble opinion jobs left America because we ALL got spoiled. Look at the automotive industry, once the strongest in the world it lost to Japanese automakers not only on price but most importantly on quality.
While UAW and other unions were busy "negotiating" even higher wages and even more restrictive contracts making it close to impossible to fire a worker for negligence and incompetence, the Japanese took our production models and improved quality via employee training and.... discipline. And won. Overcompensated, over-protected American auto workers could not produce high quality products and lost competition to their Asian counterparts. Even Americans started buying imported cars en mass. Who is the winner here? The Unions?
Almost the same happened across all industries: pro-worker regulations and high cost of conducting business due to government regulations first forced the companies to move their operations to southern states and then overseas, applauded by consumers, happy to be able to afford things they could NEVER afford before...
Would we like these jobs to come back to America? Sure. Is there a lot of Americans who would like to work for $3.50/hr? No. Would the rest of us like to pay prices adjusted for higher cost of labor in the US?
Of course not. The Walmart crowd, often unemployed or retired i.e. on so called fixed income, will take up arms in defense of their cheap Chinese products: public assistance recipients and retirees simply DON'T CARE about jobs, they are not a part of job market anyway...
We got spoiled. When economy was doing great in the 50's, 60's we accumulated so much wealth that unions declared open season and were moving the wages up with with every contract in the same time improving their retirement plans and making the employees immune to any discipline. Teamsters anyone?
Greedy unions were milking companies and general public until employers said enough and simply moved operations elsewhere or like in case of Detroit were simply dying. Demand, demand, demand...
Isn't that the American way?
We got spoiled. Janitors in America were making more than teachers elsewhere. Public employees were making more than doctors elsewhere, anybody with any leverage was negotiating a raise...
While by itself raising wages is not that bad it is not sustainable because after a while American made products could not compete with foreign products. Manufacturers discovered this long time ago and concluded that to stay relevant in the market place they have to move the operations overseas as well.
We are flooded by imports cause if a product are made in China as Quong Ping Go or Apple it is still an import in America. If American companies haven't moved their operations overseas, we would be flooded by the same products but under Chinese brand names. Really. American companies did what they had to do.
As a labor market we lost the competitive battle and end up with a society that believes that a high school graduate, which can barely read and write as opposed to high school graduates in other industrialized countries, is entitled to six figure salary.
We have a society which glorifies people with little or no education making tons of money: rappers, actors, basketball players. Those are our idols. Those are the role models for our children.
I have a Chinese friend who told me that in China Bill Gates is Britney Spears - he is the idol, he is on the front pages, he is the role model.
In America Britney Spears is Bill Gates - she the idol, she takes up front pages, she is the role model.
We got spoiled. Everybody wants easy money. Ain't gonna happen for everybody... America is still waiting for its wake up call. It's hasn't come yet, but it is close.
Sorry for the rant
Everyone talks of market forces but there wouldn't be a market at all if it wasn't for the taxpayer shouldering the burden and debt of a failed financial sector which talks a good game but doesn't live to the high moral code of etiquette it preaches to the unemplyed sitting on the scrap heap.
When the private sector learns to stand on its own feet without siphoning off the profits and sponging off the taxpayer then it can preach market forces.
Until then damn the hypicrisy. They've held the global economy hostage for too long and this economic system of deregulation and rigged derivatives was a deliberate heist that achieved its aim of fuelling profligate and unsustainable gluttony in the boardroom subsidised by the sweat and toil of the hard working man who got shafted for being a fule and living with principles and playing by the rules.
What country are you referring to when you say American janitors were earning more than teachers? Ethiopa? Somalia? These free market fundamenatalist poster boys of barren land, disease and corruption perhaps? Friedman's doctrine worked wonders in Africa after all, no wonder. In Norway however a street cleaner earns a good living and why not?
We all have a role to play in society and every person is entitled to be able to feed their family. I guess until the western world is a reflection of the misery of the third world and 5-6 year old kids are trawling through sewage in an undrpass in Calcutta for a slice of stale bread and some shirtbuttons we haven't truly arrived as a globalised world order. Lets scrape for the borrom of the barrel instead of reaching for the skystriving to better the fate of humanity. Level down, never upin an eternal race to the bottom. Is that really what we're going to waste centuries of evolution in mankind and innovation of tehchnology on? Such negative and fraudulent lies?
And as for unions complete nonsense. American companies ran their industries into the ground instead of re-investing in infrastructure and efficiencies in technology which is why the Germans still have such a big manufacturing base today. When boardroom gluttony is King, everyone's a pauper in the long run. Well, except the King and his corporate cronies in the corporatist hierarchy that is the United States.
Organised crime isn't just a problem in the US today, it's the status quo. The hocus pocus guff of the 'self-regulating' market has destroyed the world.
All this "We had it too good so it's time to start rolling back the years to the caveman and me Tarzan You Jane" lord Of The Jungle bootcamp philosophy stalwarts conveniently ignore the facts. Fundamenatally advances in technology could (and should) have easily been used not just to sustain a high quality of life in the western world but to advance it and produce clean drinking water and sustainability in the third world.
It wasn't and it just makes no sense. One machine can do the job more efficiently than 10 men could in the 60's and yet instead of using these advances to produce a more efficient and effective way of life mankind has sought to use advances in technology as a means of legitimising high unemployment, a devolution of jobs to slave wage nations and the pitiful excuse that this is "progress" when wars raged and civilians starved and all the advances we have made have been frittered away in a ponzi sheme for an increasingly bubble wrapped and molly coddled few.
How convenient that evolution ended up in regression for the majority and utopia for the already haves. Pure science. Who'd have thought it would turn out so conveniently for the expanding gut of boardroom gluttony that only seems to make its cake from sinking its teeth into state infrastructure. A million to one shot but noow we're on a level playing field that's just how it has to be from now on. Until it gets even worse that is.
How positive. As I say, come back to me when free market fundamenatalism has devised a way to stand on its own two feet and survive without dumping generations of debt on the taxpayer.
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 07-25-2012 at 05:25 PM..
Well stated, rebel12. I formerly worked for a D3 Tier 1 supplier who shared a similar, barely performing union workforce, where yes, the janitors in maintainence were being paid more than many teachers in town. Since than, they wisely kissed their home of 75 years bye bye and moved to an RTW state, reducing the bloated workforce and paying only Fair Market Value dependent on skill levels.
PS, Detroit wanted us to pay them outlandish amounts; they paid us outlandish amounts, and the D3 were too arogant to ever think Japan would kick their butts. Japan did, forced us to accept reasonable prices, which at first cut profits, and eventually push came to shove, and hello RTW.
It was wonderful, even though I had left (but stayed in touch with the section of top mgmgt who KNEW the D3 were going to get throttled) to see Free market Capitalism erode the fantasy world of yesteryears' Not on Earth union mentality.
NO NO NO- iT is more simple than that..to have a worker in China or India who puts in a days labor for a bowl of fish head soup and 5 bucks a day has the direct effect of a savings..or what they call a greater profit. The abandoning of domestic workers in America has had the effect of allowing a corporate executives who in the old days might get a 3 million dollar bonus who now through slave labor abroad can now have a 30 million dollar bonus...The last time AMERICA became dependent on slave labor it resulted in a destroyed nation through civil war.
Now there is another kind of civil war going in progress against the middle class- attempting to drive them into slavery- greed driven debt inflicted on America by disloyal and traitorous corporations ....has generated a new kind of indentured slave- AMERICAN slaves who will never work of the debt- partly because these corporations have in essence sold the American worker out....all for higher profits that most of this group consisting of about 100 upper management types can not spend in 10 life times-------------------------This is not free enterprise that the nation was built on- This is slavery that the nation should should realize almost destroyed them in the past and has re-appeared in a new form,
Well stated, rebel12. I formerly worked for a D3 Tier 1 supplier who shared a similar, barely performing union workforce, where yes, the janitors in maintainence were being paid more than many teachers in town. Since than, they wisely kissed their home of 75 years bye bye and moved to an RTW state, reducing the bloated workforce and paying only Fair Market Value dependent on skill levels.
PS, Detroit wanted us to pay them outlandish amounts; they paid us outlandish amounts, and the D3 were too arogant to ever think Japan would kick their butts. Japan did, forced us to accept reasonable prices, which at first cut profits, and eventually push came to shove, and hello RTW.
It was wonderful, even though I had left (but stayed in touch with the section of top mgmgt who KNEW the D3 were going to get throttled) to see Free market Capitalism erode the fantasy world of yesteryears' Not on Earth union mentality.
Thank you. I agree, unions taught their members to treat the company as enemy. Unions told members: organize and fight. Not increase your qualifications and advance, this was reserved for seniority system, but fight and demand. I could never stand union attitude: "not my job description" and "I don't give a **** after 5pm". Thats wrong: your employer is not your enemy, we are codependent. We need each other.
We got spoiled and dumbed down by the media telling us we are the best. Yes we are but it doesnt mean we don't have to try anymore.
Thank you. I agree, unions taught their members to treat the company as enemy. Unions told members: organize and fight. Not increase your qualifications and advance, this was reserved for seniority system, but fight and demand. I could never stand union attitude: "not my job description" and "I don't give a **** after 5pm". Thats wrong: your employer is not your enemy, we are codependent. We need each other.
We got spoiled and dumbed down by the media telling us we are the best. Yes we are but it doesnt mean we don't have to try anymore.
Co-dependence is a reality and the company is not your enemy..Unions were poorly behaved that is true- but even if unions never existed..things would have turned out the same way. For instance if unions only asked for half of what they asked for...Corporations would still have grabbed the opportunity of taking cheaper non-domestic labor on...It is about profit..Those who are driven by profit have no limits..Some think that CE0s think like us..They don't - there is no reasonable thought process with these people.
I knew a guy who passed away recently - he was 75 years old and still working and in control of his enterprise..His job was to ensure that HIS wealthy sect of investors and holders of great amounts of money - could continue maintaining their own interests in safety and security- He was like an old watch dog- Wealth management was his sole purpose.. Of the dozens of companies that he protected and controlled - just one of them contained the private holdings that was in excess of 30 billion...
This guy had one goal..even as he approached death- was to continue to accumulate and hoard..Money is useless unless it is current and flowing with the current that is currency. For it to sit still- and not move is of no benefit to society at large. There is no shortage of money. Just a shortage of will to spend the stuff. Companies eventually become banks..private ones. What good is a bank that limits it's ability to loan? Governments and private individuals will agree to print more money to disperse into the public realm - but refuse to use their own money to stimulate an economy. The super rich have a system of self identity and esteem that is overly dependent on amount...
Lower the amount of personal worth by a few points and they go into a state of private protectionism...and they panic- "In God We Trust".....They have little faith in them selves and no faith what so ever in the public at large. There is no economic crisis in reality....just a cowardice and insecurity that has spread like a disease through the upper ranks. As they watch a nation enter poverty- they close ranks and make things worse.
NO NO NO- iT is more simple than that..to have a worker in China or India who puts in a days labor for a bowl of fish head soup and 5 bucks a day has the direct effect of a savings..or what they call a greater profit.
Again... it's the STOCKHOLDERS who demand greater profits, and the Board of Directors who are ELECTED by those very same stockholders, negotiate the CEOs' bonuses.
Unions and 401k investors are behind the demands for more corporate profitability, which is driving jobs offshore for lower costs. Many won't understand that until they consider the fact that union pension funds are some of the biggest investors in the U.S. CalPERS (California Public Employees' Retirement System, and others like them) DEMANDS that CEOs manage their corporations more effectively and profitably. They need a high rate of return on their investments so that retirees' pensions can be paid.
Quote:
...working people have bought enough stocks and shares to become bosses of the bosses. And some pension funds have begun making that clear. CalPERS, the California Public Employees' Retirement System, has led the way in telling Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) and boards of directors that they'd better manage effectively or else. And, CEOs and directors listen; after all CalPERS runs the country's biggest pension fund
Simpletons like me are unpopular. The king has no clothes...Put in simple terms- I am a pirate Captain of a ship- I have a crew- I plunder and I share the bounty with the crew. I take my share of the booty and buy a bigger ship...then I get this greedy notion...I have equipped my ship with better cannons and only need a few men...I go out and plunder...gather more goods and return to port- My home port where the old crew resides---I suggest they buy my booty my goods...They are so poor because they have not been working - for the simple reason I down sized and got rid of them...I expect to sell my goods...and now I can't...
What is going to happen when America gets so poor that they can not even buy garbage made in China or India -or Mexico- who are you going to sell to then- I don't think you big shots have thought that far ahead have you?
What is going to happen when America gets so poor that they can not even buy garbage made in China or India -or Mexico- who are you going to sell to then- I don't think you big shots have thought that far ahead have you?
You're missing the point that the STOCKHOLDERS are driving the decisions. The STOCKHOLDERS are largely union pension plans and 401k investors. THEY are doing this to themselves. Reread my post: http://www.city-data.com/forum/25345761-post147.html
Simpletons like me are unpopular. The king has no clothes...Put in simple terms- I am a pirate Captain of a ship- I have a crew- I plunder and I share the bounty with the crew. I take my share of the booty and buy a bigger ship...then I get this greedy notion...I have equipped my ship with better cannons and only need a few men...I go out and plunder...gather more goods and return to port- My home port where the old crew resides---I suggest they buy my booty my goods...They are so poor because they have not been working - for the simple reason I down sized and got rid of them...I expect to sell my goods...and now I can't...
What is going to happen when America gets so poor that they can not even buy garbage made in China or India -or Mexico- who are you going to sell to then- I don't think you big shots have thought that far ahead have you?
Well, I think the plan is by then China's wealth will increase among its people, create great demand which will translate into a huge block of new consumers. Except so far that isn't happening. What could happen is those foreign goods will then be copied and manufactured in China, by Chinese for Chinese consumption.
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