Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If by free you mean free to live in a derelict school bus behind a wharehouse in Beaumont Tx. I'll take the Monarchy any old day of the week.
I've travelled extensively throughout the U.S for decades as an RV'er snowbird from Canada and made it a mission to get the heck off the interstate system as far into the backroads and small communites as my lash-up of a custom built International Toter carrying my Harley Ultra and towing a 40 foot fifth wheel would allow and I've seen some stuff that would curl your hair.
Freedom is a wonderful concept much balleyhooed as the cornerstone of your country's heritage but one has to ask themselves: In what ways am I "more" free than say a citizen of virtually any other country on the planet if I cannot feed my family, afford the health insurance for their well-being, enjoy the benefits of living in a country that can afford to melt the iron from a tragedy and make an item of war out of it rather than develope a universal health care program for all it's citizens.
When the symbolic takes precedence over the practical, when bellicose posturing takes front stage over diplomacy and tact, when your political system virtually grinds to a standstill over the entrenched but nevertheless undefined party policies of two opposing parties with no option for a third entity to be given a voice, are you truly free?
Is this the freedom your forefathers envisioned or merely the hyjacked facade used to further the ambitions of corporate entities you were summarily warned about by Ike?
Yet -- more people from around the world who weren't born here want to come here than to anywhere else. The USA has by far more legal immigrants than any other nation on the planet and we have more illegals than Canada has people.
In part because there is that image out there of the USA having streets lined with gold and the biggest social safety nets imaginable -- and we do, we spend tons of money on our anti-Poverty programs, but they don't reduce poverty, they increase it.
Face it -- millions of impoverished immigrants will tell you they'd rather be poor in the USA than live in their own countries. A delapitated school bus behind a warehouse would be just perfect for many throughout the world. They'd jump at the chance.
The situation with dental care has improved dramatically over the last 5 years. You can't move for tripping over dentists these days and in my area alone there are signs everywhere "NHS Patients sign up here". And I'm in a middling part of London, nothing special.
It wasn't really my decision to leave San Francisco to be honest I would have loved to have stayed in and around there, it was my girlfriend's because she has family in Monteray so we travelled through these place on the journey there to experience a different side to America. And I don't regret it despite the inflammatory remarks about hicks and yokels.
That was just to trigger debate. Some of these people were decent people, others people you wouldn't want to meet down a dark alley. But hey, I love America at its best. To me America at its best is better than most countries on Earth. But at its worst it is probably worse than some of the poverty seen in the UK. To be honest I'm glad I experienced it as it gave me another experience away from the major cities.
Don't get me wrong I'd really love to explore other parts of America. It hasn't put me off. I'm never disappointed by America as an experience. It has so much to offer. It displays some of the best humanity has to offer, including some of the best writers and music.
Unfortunately there is a side to America that displays some of the worst humanity has to offer too and I just wondered because of the size and scope of America whether this something that Americans themselves were fully aware of. You have to remember the UK is a alot smaller on scale so it is alot easier to have at least a fairly familiar concept of what to expect in certain areas before you visit.
There used to be a London saying "it's grim up north" because of the poverty you see the further removed you are from the south of England and even today that can be true. London has serious gang and drug problems with a kind of gang culture that is similar to the corner boy mentality seen in some parts of America but I have to say I still think it is a little milder in intensity if not something admittedly that can be swept under the carpet.
Thanks for the reccomendations though i'd love to visit New England aif I got the chance. Ireland, Spain an America are my favourite holiday destinations and I intend to go back to America sometime next year off peak.
I moved out of California to Olklahoma, in part because there are just too many people there (I can't stand crowds) speaking of socal here, but also since I'm on a fixed income. I ran out with help before the end of the month. And also because in some areas, I felt unwelcome. Can't afford a fancy car, huge house lots of toys you don't need? Then your dirt. This isn't everywhere or everyone, but I deeply disliked the 'nice' parts of Orange county since the rule was to show off and keep up with the johnses.
It wasn't like that when I was a kid in the fifties in the new suburbs of Los Angeles. People were glad to have a house and a car, but one would do, and they weren't mcmansions. I don't know what happened in the last few years, but being poor has become a quick trip to oblivioun.
There is a thread in the Sanfrancisco subboard about the homeless which says it all about the new attitude. Note that many don't agree with the poster, but that so much hatred is spewed is telling. Get rid of the homeless. Just how? Some don't seem to care.
I came here for the lower population and the lower cost of living. But also that I don't see that attitude so much. Overall the average income is much lower. But I also don't see the ostentation, the *stuff* and clothes to show that you have what someone else doesn't. I'm not saying its perfect. There's plenty of meth around, for instance. But then where I lived in California there was more.
I think people who are afraid of losing what they have are holding on Sooooo tight to this image of themselves they can't see the rest. And what we've got is pools of money and pools of poverty so the money doesn't have to see it. When they do they'd like to 'get rid' of the sight.
I worry about us too, since all the things which are going wrong are spiraling out of control. We're heading for a small very rich layer and a few middle class hangers on and a lot of people who still 'feel' middle class but have been sweeezed out since profit is king. But they live poor while keeping the values they grew up with.
And the underclass which will lose out even more and suck in the losers of the above.
This isn't a stable situation, and I don't know what comes of the mix, but I hope my kid learns to be very flexable since he'll have to be in his life. But what I hope is the great desperate get their act together and start fighting for something more equitable.
Last edited by nightbird47; 07-29-2012 at 01:58 PM..
America has changed over the past 12-15 years, and it has not been for the better. Here's a longtime political columnist's informed opinion on what's been happening. The second half of his article is what applies with an excerpt here:
I've been doing this - writing columns - for nearly 50 years, 35 years of it in Washington. I can tell you that things have changed, and not for the better.
I've covered fools, crooks and charlatans over this half century. But for the most part, they had some sense of seriousness about them - an appreciation for the national interest as they saw it. Even rogues like Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon did.
The current bunch of miscreants is nothing like that. Centrist Democrats, who talk a good game but don't do much about it, are battling increasingly radical Republicans, a fierce tribe of Bible-thumping know-nothings fueled by money from modern Robber Barons who want to sell the country off by the board foot and metric ton for their personal profit.
Thus we approximate the times described by the Irish poet W.B. Yeats:
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."
I am pretty sure that I just read an opinion piece written by an Obama voter and supporter.
I am sure glad I didn't have to feel the pain he says he did when I had my heart attack that had no pain involved but did involve a hurry up trip to the hospital, just in case. When they checked me they found that I had 3 arteries at least 85% plugged and 3 between 90 and 95%. Surely someone must have some other plans for me and I don't think they involve fighting the Republican party b but do think it might be just the opposite. Thus, you and I seldom agree.
Yet -- more people from around the world who weren't born here want to come here than to anywhere else. The USA has by far more legal immigrants than any other nation on the planet and we have more illegals than Canada has people.
And so you should. Why do you suppose that is? You think the immigrants legal or otherwise are coming to live in poverty or escape it? Would you opine any of them are coming to live in one of those derelict houses shown in Detroit. Dreams are what they have and your country has offered them fulfillment of those dreams for generations. No argument there and your next para describes that in fine detail.
In part because there is that image out there of the USA having streets lined with gold and the biggest social safety nets imaginable -- and we do, we spend tons of money on our anti-Poverty programs, but they don't reduce poverty, they increase it.
Face it -- millions of impoverished immigrants will tell you they'd rather be poor in the USA than live in their own countries. A delapitated school bus behind a warehouse would be just perfect for many throughout the world. They'd jump at the chance.
Again no argument but when it's your own citizens living like that as well, what does this speak to?
Canada's population is now well over 30 million so I would guess your illegal problem is far worse than your leaders are letting on and certainly nothing to be proud of. Now what are you doing about it with your stalled congress? Better yet; what have you ever done about it but encourage it, liberal or conservative?
You haven't stated anything in your post that negates the o/p's contention that in the land of milk and honey, also exists the reality of depr"i"vation and failed hopes.
From a true blue American, apologies for the bad experience you had while visiting here. Truth be told, you somehow ended up in a poverty stricken area of the USA taking a tour and I have to ask you WHY? We are in the midst of the worse time ever with our economy so people are struggling everywhere throughout the USA, some worse than others. What you don't know is that although there are no jobs here for people, there are always those people who refuse to work, who might be hung up on drugs or have health issues. It isn't a good situation by a long shot but it is also far from how you describe it. You only saw part of the USA so lets say you still have to see the beautiful Mid-West and also the East Coast where I am. Have you ever been to Northern New England in the fall? There is so much more to see that is better than where you were. Come on...don't tell me that all of London/England is absolutely beautiful. You too have your fair share of poverty and people who can't afford to take care of themselves. England is notorious for not having proper dental care for their people so lots of you have absolutely horrid teeth from what I can see..sound petty? Well, when you visit a different country you gotta learn that there will be bad mixed in with all the good. I love the USA...been here my whole life, mostly on the East Coast but have been out to California and have to say that although California is busy and full of activity, has a high incidence of drug abuse and more...there are gorgeous areas there as well. Somehow you missed them and found yourself right in the midst of the worst of it all. My sister has lived in California most of her adult life, I believe her town is in Miramar Valley?? Always call her or talk via computer..anyhow, it is so amazingly beautiful there. All I am saying is....check yourself in England for bad areas, drug areas, slums, poverty, etc. then tell me that you don't have any serious issues with your population as well.
Precisely! The supposed "deterioration/decadence" in contemporary America has been, in large part, created and stage-managed by the Mainstream Media .... who have an agenda of their own.
And unless you are of an age sufficent to remember the stagnation in Great Britain under the likes of ol' "Half-Baked Harold" Wilson, don't sit in judgement on Thatcher, who got your own econpmy moving again, just as Ronald Reagan did (and with the bloodless collapse of the last of the great European butcher-states as a bonus).
We aren't in that much trouble, the majority of us still have jobs, and the safety net protects anyone who plays by the rules. The only real problem is a gang of youngsters expecting to start out at age 25 (after eight years of subsidized intellectual fingepainting) in a corner office with no real work involved, and a bunch of bozos "who wonders why dat Union Card don't get dem inta Heaven no more".
The rest of us are doing satisfactorily, if not spectacularly, as usual.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 07-29-2012 at 03:22 PM..
[quote=14Bricks;25393122]Voting conservative? Are you stupid or what? The guy sitting in the white house is a liberal.[/q/uote]
Oh, I'm what. I was referring to the Republicon Party/lunatic fringe. 'Liberal', haha, that's a good one! So when he and Emmanuel gave the finger to progressives they were just kidding? Those scamps!
Obama is a moderate Republican/Democrat in name only. He said no to single-payer, adopted a Republican health plan, even said no to a public option in the exchanges. He continued to try to work with Republicans even while they were trying to stick a knife in his back at every opportunity. It's possible he has wised up and sees now we are at war with the right-wing.
This is all obvious and has been gone over before. I give him credit for getting this GOP plan passed while that party has gone over to the lunatic fringe. At least it is something. Also for saving the American auto industry. I'm sorry our visitor from England had to see the unfortunate result of Republicon policies enacted since Reagan rose up from the Underworld.
Speaking of which, Mailbu looks great on telly but in reality? Sanitation is putrid
Yes. Getting stuck on one of the smaller roads next to a $10 million house with a view of Catalina that's having the septic tank cleaned is, indeed, one of life's nightmares.
Reminds me of old soviet propaganda spoon-fed to the Russians.
The soviets would show a scene of a trashed-out back-alley urban area
claiming it represented the horrible conditions in America.
The Russian people, however, could see glimpses of another America -
glittering high rises in the distance - and knew there was more to America
than soviet propaganda showed.
.
Some of the best Soviet propaganda came in the form of not allowing American visitors to take pictures in the Soviet Union. I once listened to a college professor who had spent 6 months on a mission to Russia where talking to them about agriculture was his purpose. He and his group were told that they could not bring in cameras and might face the death penalty if they were caught with them. Some kind of reverse propaganda, I think.
Anyway his days in the Ukraine were spent trying to help Russians grow more and better wheat. One of the best wheat growing regions in the world is the Ukraine. I think they may have grown some fair wheat but didn't seem to get most of it to the elevator. Back there in 1977 all farm products were considered government property, much like small businesses seem to be in the Obama way of thinking. Anyway those farmers didn't care how much of their wheat they got to the elevator. They drove trucks with no end gates in them on roads so pot hole filled that they got to town with less than half of what they started with.
I think the birds loved the farmers but the government didn't. Those were the days of the farm collectives when each farm got the collective tractor and other equipment when some bureaucrats decided it was their turn. Combines worked the same way even though the wheat ripened about the same speed in every local area. The farmers told my professor that they usually got the equipment in some kind of disrepair so couldn't use it till they made the repairs.
The Soviets wised up, finally, and gave the farmers small plots to use as gardens and they worked much harder in them than in their wheat fields. All the extra food they grew could be sold in town to the factory workers.
If you think the collective way of doing business is a good way, maybe you should look into the writings of those people on those trips.
The pictures that prof showed us looked too much like the pictures of the countryside in the movie "Dr. Zhivago". They had made no progress in housing in the over 50 years between the days of that movie and 1977.
You ought to visit the reservations of So Dak. I don't think there is any worse poverty and hopelessness in the US than the Pine Ridge reservation here. The sad part is, the reservation system is a gov't made and fostered phenomena.
Spent a month there in August 05. Rough place to be wounded for sure. Since i lived i wouldn't trade that experience for the world, but it sure is a rough place.
Met a little girl there, who came everyday to draw with my wife's colored pencils, and just saw her on tv all grown up and making a better life for herself, but i gotta wonder what the people she will leave behind will have to say about that.
.................................................. ..
@ the OP things were not like that in 05 into 06, so you see what can happen quickly when the leaders are wrong.... I am not talking about the rez but the west in general and i was in some of the very same places you mentioned. Of course there are places like 'Scenic' a town name but that town is more or less owned by a certain group of outlaw bikers...
And sure even a man from New Hampshire is seen as a allien out there.......
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
