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American citizens can apply to US colleges as foreign students. Historian has pointed out that there is no law against it. So it's perfectly legal.
MB has pointed out that while it's legal, it's impractical. The American citizen doesn't possess the paperwork to establish foreign student credentials that would qualify someone for an international studies program. While there is no LEGAL impediment, there are issues of practicality involved. And while birthers have fabricated some huge advantage for foreign students, the reality is that there isn't a huge advantage. Some schools, not all schools, may have a few select scholarships, but otherwise financial aid is based on the same criteria for all students. Academic standards are the same, and the students have to attend the same classes, use the same library and research sources.
We know FOR A FACT that Obama graduated from an American high school. In Hawaii.
We know that colleges and universities have international studies programs in an effort to promote diversity on their campuses. They want students with diverse experiences and backgrounds on campus to add their personal knowledge to the learning experiences of the student body as a whole. They are looking to add depth to the educational process. But many of these foreign exchange students (most, in my experience, but that's not definitive) are paying their tuition with minimal financial aid. International students have scholarships from their host countries, and many, many international students to the United States come from wealthy backgrounds to begin with.
American citizens can apply to US colleges as foreign students.
Wow. No.
Just one example...
Quote:
MIT considers any student who does not hold US citizenshipor permanent residency to be an international applicant, regardless of where you live or attend school.
Yeah, I'm still going with Obama failed economics.
Well we agree on one thing.
Had he majored in econ the stimulus would have been more robust, a smaller percentage would have gone to tax cuts and more for jobs and training.
I've read John Maynard Keynes and Obama is no Keynesian.
PS - maybe that's the problem with birthers, they keep getting Kenyan confused with Keyneian. Sort of like Bush being confused about who had a wmd program Iraq or Iran.
I don't think it matters if it's legal or not, because it would have been impossible for him to do.
With all due respect, mb, you're first and foremost generalizing your personal experience with all experiences of foreigners attending school in the US. The fact is that not all experiences are the same. It is not even clear to me if you were an American student studying overseas, or a foreign student studying here.
Secondly, you are confusing your different argument against the same Birther claim as an argument against what I'm saying. We are not in actual disagreement here. You are arguing that it is impossible. I am arguing that even were it true, it would be neither illegal nor commission of a fraud. These are not arguments in opposition with each other.
The Birther claim is the amorphous and largely pointless assertion that he registered at Occidental and Columbia as a "foreign student." It is a piece of wild and unsupported speculation and any further speculation regarding what preference program might be a motive for doing so is merely layering new wild speculation on top of old wild speculation.
The term "foreign exchange student" is primary applied to high school students, not college students. Such programs are extremely rigid (as you describe) but are not relevant to attendance at an institution of higher learning. The acceptance of foreign students into those institutions are (with the exception of short term "study abroad" or "semester abroad" programs) not "exchange" programs at all. They are not "international programs." They are at their core the same exact process of admissions as domestic students... students apply and either do or do not get in. A specific "student" visa is not a requirement, though that is certainly the visa program of which most foreign students take advantage. But foreigners can also live in the US under any number of other visa programs or as holders of a green card and still attend college. For example, a foreigner here on a work visa can attend college while present in the country, no problem. And of course dual citizens can attend college here without any visa at all.
Further more, it is impossible to actually figure out what program the Birthers are hallucinating of which Obama would have been taking advantage. Few US schools have any quotas associated with foreign students, though most like to take them because they actually tend to pay the highest possible (i.e. non-resident) tuition rather than receive some imaginary special scholarships for foreigners from the schools. Fulbright scholarships are only granted for graduate work, which Obama was not at either Occidental or Columbia. There are few if any financial advantages of being a foreign student in a US university.
But at the college/university level the requirements for participation in any program is determined by the institution, not the government. There is no law that sets standards beyond simple legal residence. So Birther claims that he did something illegal or committed fraud are absurd on their face... even were it true that he attended as a foreign student for some inexplicable reason.
You're missing the point.
Many universities do have study abroad, or foreign exchange programs, but you are correct that not all students studying abroad are in those programs--many seek regular admission just like American students. I did a year overseas in high school, and a semester abroad in college, and both were considered foreign exchange programs, and I was called an exchange student. The case the birthers are trying to make is that Obama somehow rigged the system by being admitted into a special program that gives preference to international students--that it was easier for him to get in that way. I'm saying that it's impossible. He wouldn't have been able to provide the documentation to get into a program that might give special preference for foreign students, plus most of those programs are short term. You don't graduate from the school--you either go a year or a semester overseas, and then you go back home and graduate from your home country university. Let's say he enrolled as a foreign national without going through a student exchange program--he'd have to do that if he planned on graduating from the American school. Under those circumstances, he wouldn't have received any special preferences on admission. He would have just been a regular student, held to the same admission requirements (or tougher ones) as everyone else.
What I'm saying is that what the birthers are claiming is impossible.
What I'm saying is that there's no point in even entertaining the idea, because it would have been impossible for him to be accepted as a foreign student, whether it's "against the law" or not.
And as I said... that is a completely different argument, not a contradictory one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1547
You all are making the case that you think Obama used a Kenyan passport to get into a better college as a foreign student than he would have qualified for as an American kid.
Actually, only Birthers are making that claim... though in the classic way Birthers have of never accepting a simple idea when a needlessly and absurdly complex one will do, they usually assert Indonesian rather than Kenyan.
No, I didn't. You need to turn in your mind reading certificate.
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