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Old 08-28-2012, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,389,572 times
Reputation: 8640

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If Congress can apply money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may establish teachers in every State, county, and parish, and pay them out of the public Treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post roads. In short, every thing, from the highest object of State legislation, down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress; for every object I have mentioned would admit the application of money, and might be called, if Congress pleased, provisions for the general welfare.

- James Madison

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

- James Madison

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

- Thomas Jefferson

The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society.

- Thomas Jefferson

Liberty is the great parent of science and of virtue; and a nation will be great in both in proportion as it is free.

- Thomas Jefferson

Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.

- Thomas Jefferson

However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

- George Washington

As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit. One method of preserving it is, to use it as sparingly as possible; avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it; avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by vigorous exertions in time of peace to discharge the debts, which unavoidable wars may have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burthen, which we ourselves ought to bear.

- George Washington

Food for thought while our political parties bash on one another over the next few weeks. Both parties are flawed, and we were founded on liberty, not taking care of everyone, and not expanding power to only a rich few, and certainly not foreign wars which cost us both liberty and wealth.

Last edited by Memphis1979; 08-28-2012 at 09:59 PM..
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:56 PM
 
6,757 posts, read 2,830,772 times
Reputation: 2487
There are some good quotes here.
Unfortunately, the status quo is going in the total opposite direction, owned by the rich elite, whom happen to be destroying this country for their own greed.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:17 AM
 
31,386 posts, read 32,557,663 times
Reputation: 14900
Warning from two Framers of the Constitution and one Founding father who wasn't privy to the debate.

FYI - There were 55 Framers of the Constitution and a damn site more members of the "Founding Fathers". Cherry picking quotes is a bit disingenuous.

Speaking of disingenuous:

Madison originally proposed that the federal government would have the power to veto any legislation passed by a state government. And as Secretary of State oversaw the purchase of the Louisiana territories which even Jefferson question his constitutional power to acquire because that power is nowhere to be seen in the Constitution.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:40 AM
 
1,512 posts, read 1,598,508 times
Reputation: 579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
If Congress can apply money indefinitely to the general welfare...
So, America fails on nearly every measure of freedom that the Founders had, and our current measure of freedom is how much we can take from others through the government. What are you doing to preserve yourself from the appetite of your countrymen?

Have you considered working for a government? You could get a job with the military, city services, DOT, etc. I think corrections departments, since the U.S. imprisons more people than Russia or China (according to The 700 Club), are always hiring, and their standards are relatively low. Then, you'll not have to suffer the stress of having part of your produce stolen since your survival depends on receiving the product that your less liberty minded fellows are donating.

It's time to recognize that the revolution is over; John Roberts confirmed it with the healthcare ruling.

Of course, you could continue by your old paradigm with this syllogism:

The government intervenes in every part of my life.
Blank out.
America is free.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:43 AM
 
Location: Lost in Texas
9,832 posts, read 5,965,964 times
Reputation: 3408
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Warning from two Framers of the Constitution and one Founding father who wasn't privy to the debate.

FYI - There were 55 Framers of the Constitution and a damn site more members of the "Founding Fathers". Cherry picking quotes is a bit disingenuous.

Speaking of disingenuous:

Madison originally proposed that the federal government would have the power to veto any legislation passed by a state government. And as Secretary of State oversaw the purchase of the Louisiana territories which even Jefferson question his constitutional power to acquire because that power is nowhere to be seen in the Constitution.
Feel free to post more quotes of discenting opinion.. I wouldn't mind reading them
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:46 AM
Status: "An okay boomer" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Near Manito
19,689 posts, read 21,258,507 times
Reputation: 14283
“It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.”

--- James Madison
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:51 AM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,218 posts, read 6,934,838 times
Reputation: 2035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
If Congress can apply money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may establish teachers in every State, county, and parish, and pay them out of the public Treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post roads. In short, every thing, from the highest object of State legislation, down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress; for every object I have mentioned would admit the application of money, and might be called, if Congress pleased, provisions for the general welfare.

- James Madison

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

- James Madison

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

- Thomas Jefferson

The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society.

- Thomas Jefferson

Liberty is the great parent of science and of virtue; and a nation will be great in both in proportion as it is free.

- Thomas Jefferson

Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.

- Thomas Jefferson

However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

- George Washington

As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit. One method of preserving it is, to use it as sparingly as possible; avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it; avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by vigorous exertions in time of peace to discharge the debts, which unavoidable wars may have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burthen, which we ourselves ought to bear.

- George Washington

Food for thought while our political parties bash on one another over the next few weeks. Both parties are flawed, and we were founded on liberty, not taking care of everyone, and not expanding power to only a rich few, and certainly not foreign wars which cost us both liberty and wealth.
Good quotes. However, I would remind you that an agrarian society is very different from our modern American society where people don't live off the land in an overwhelming percentage. Granting Congress powers to create our education (however flawed it is today), creating our effective infrastructure system (however much it is crumbling and needing desperate repair today), and all the research (which we are falling behind on) is what separated us from the rest until more recent times. Straying from our founder's original intent and wishes, while trying to adapt to modern challenges produces hits and misses. Thomas Jefferson was more interested in creating an agrarian society which would have faltered against the mechanization of the industrial age. America wouldn't have achieved what it has if it didn't strike it's own path that doesn't necessarily comply with the founders intent.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:53 AM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,218 posts, read 6,934,838 times
Reputation: 2035
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Warning from two Framers of the Constitution and one Founding father who wasn't privy to the debate.

FYI - There were 55 Framers of the Constitution and a damn site more members of the "Founding Fathers". Cherry picking quotes is a bit disingenuous.

Speaking of disingenuous:

Madison originally proposed that the federal government would have the power to veto any legislation passed by a state government. And as Secretary of State oversaw the purchase of the Louisiana territories which even Jefferson question his constitutional power to acquire because that power is nowhere to be seen in the Constitution.
People often forget about the federalists (stronger central govt) vs the anti-federalist (more state power) struggle with ratifying our Constitution. The Federalist won with a compromise.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,389,572 times
Reputation: 8640
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
People often forget about the federalists (stronger central govt) vs the anti-federalist (more state power) struggle with ratifying our Constitution. The Federalist won with a compromise.
I'd say the federalist won because power corrupts
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Central Maine
4,696 posts, read 5,617,696 times
Reputation: 5023
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.

Mark Twain
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