What an actual Christian looks like

[personwhoisaperson]

Originally Posted by cometclear

It's a fabulous model of modern conservatives. I get to listen to them every day. They really have bought into this "I got mine now you get yours" Objectivism when it comes to politics. Way back when, conservatives spoke of the common good and communitarian values. Now that's regarded as "commiespeak." Pathetic.

Yes you are.

There's really not much more to say on this thread. It's intended purpose was to bash Christians and Conservatives. Mission accomplished. Move on with your life.

[GuyNTexas]

Originally Posted by cometclear

To return to the point, I increasingly see a Randite philosophy in our society. I'm noting the irony of folks, like Paul Ryan, who embrace this "rational selfishness" when it comes to their political and social beliefs, but then try to align it with their religious beliefs that are rooted in altruism. This would include those who believe the lives of people in foreign nations should be sacrificed for their own safety and preservation. As Christians, you are not called upon to sacrifice the lives of others to protect yourselves. You are called upon to sacrifice yourselves for others. As Christians, you are called upon to recognize the dignity of all humans. If you wish to adhere to another philosophy, fine, do that. Just don't call yourselves Christians.

Of course you are certain of your position, but this is just your own confusion, both in Christian doctrine as well as with Rand's philosophy of "Rational Selfishness". Things would be more clear to you if you might ask yourself what did Jesus really mean when he said "love thy neighbor as thy self" ? Do you think he was suggesting that one should put other's interests ahead of one's own? Or did he mean that it's natural and nothing wrong with loving thyself (selfishness), and only that one should extend that same love of the self to others? There is no command or insinuation that one should place the interests of others ahead of self interests. And this is a repeating theme, such as in Ephesians 5:25; 33 "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband". Clearly there is no suggestion that one value his wife greater that himself .. only as equal to the love one has for himself.

I find extreme duplicity with people who are so quick to criticize Christians and the Bible on all sorts of biblical edicts on one hand, only to turn around and criticize them for not following the philosophy on the other. Particularly when the critics so often misinterpret the philosophy. And all of this nonsense about treating everyone else's interests as superior to one's own interests is a statist-collectivist-authoritarian contrivance, just as much as this "turn the other cheek" business. Does it also sound like the Bible commands people to lay down and assume a weak posture by turning the other cheek here: Luke 11:21-"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Does this not suggest that one is justified in guarding himself and his property, including the use of force?
And here: Proverbs 26 A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well. This suggests that it is not just a right but a duty to confront the wicked. And here again: Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide (protection) for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Clearly this passage directly challenges your interpretation of Christian philosophy.

Many people misunderstand Christianity, thinking that it teaches total non-violence and self sacrifice, when it simply does not. Jesus didn't tell Peter to put away his sword because he should not engage in self defense ... only that he be overwhelmingly outnumbered, and therefore ill advised to take that approach.

Originally Posted by cometclear

The problem is not that many of you try to adhere to those principles, yet fail. The problem is not even that you don't even try. The problem is that you advocate ideas that are directly counter to those Christian principles. I don't understand it. I don't claim a label if I know have no intention of adhering to those principles. It would bother my conscience. Are some of you just not listening to the sermons on Sunday? What exactly are you hearing from the words of Jesus that, in your mind, justifies what comes out of your mouths when you speak of the poor or those in foreign lands who are supposedly your enemies? I really would be interested in knowing that. I think about it often and I don't understand it.

First of all, you misunderstand those values .. place your own definition on them, and then claim others are failing to follow your definition. The problem is your definition.

Secondly, it is not the Christian community driving the train toward never ending war in the Middle East ... it's primarily the NEOCON traitors on the so-called right, and the duel citizen Israelis in congress, AIPAC, ADL, etc that want American blood to spill fighting Israel's enemies. People that support this, be they Christian or not, have simply been deceived.

[wade52]

Originally Posted by Taratova

Guess what. There was WAR in Heaven.. God threw out Satan and 1/3 of the angels.

So this god you speak of...

He wasn't all-knowing and all-powerful after all.

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas

Of course you are certain of your position, but this is just your own confusion, both in Christian doctrine as well as with Rand's philosophy of "Rational Selfishness". Things would be more clear to you if you might ask yourself what did Jesus really mean when he said "love thy neighbor as thy self" ? Do you think he was suggesting that one should put other's interests ahead of one's own? Or did he mean that it's natural and nothing wrong with loving thyself (selfishness), and only that one should extend that same love of the self to others? There is no command or insinuation that one should place the interests of others ahead of self interests. And this is a repeating theme, such as in Ephesians 5:25; 33 "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband". Clearly there is no suggestion that one value his wife greater that himself .. only as equal to the love one has for himself.

I find extreme duplicity with people who are so quick to criticize Christians and the Bible on all sorts of biblical edicts on one hand, only to turn around and criticize them for not following the philosophy on the other. Particularly when the critics so often misinterpret the philosophy. And all of this nonsense about treating everyone else's interests as superior to one's own interests is a statist-collectivist-authoritarian contrivance, just as much as this "turn the other cheek" business. Does it also sound like the Bible commands people to lay down and assume a weak posture by turning the other cheek here: Luke 11:21-"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Does this not suggest that one is justified in guarding himself and his property, including the use of force?
And here: Proverbs 26 A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well. This suggests that it is not just a right but a duty to confront the wicked. And here again: Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide (protection) for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Clearly this passage directly challenges your interpretation of Christian philosophy.

Many people misunderstand Christianity, thinking that it teaches total non-violence and self sacrifice, when it simply does not. Jesus didn't tell Peter to put away his sword because he should not engage in self defense ... only that he be overwhelmingly outnumbered, and therefore ill advised to take that approach.


First of all, you misunderstand those values .. place your own definition on them, and then claim others are failing to follow your definition. The problem is your definition.

Secondly, it is not the Christian community driving the train toward never ending war in the Middle East ... it's primarily the NEOCON traitors on the so-called right, and the duel citizen Israelis in congress, AIPAC, ADL, etc that want American blood to spill fighting Israel's enemies. People that support this, be they Christian or not, have simply been deceived.

So who knew that all this time, Christ was actually preaching Ayn Randian narcissism and "selfishness"?! And what an interesting take on the philosophy of a Great Teacher who relentlessly preached Love and the renunciation of Ego and material wealth, and who selflessly surrendered Himself to humiliation, torture and death as His divine destiny!

BTW, are you a theologian, a minister... a saint?! What, precisely, are your credentials for re-interpreting Christ's philosophy, let alone your superior 'definitions' ?

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." -St. Augustine

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas

Of course you are certain of your position, but this is just your own confusion, both in Christian doctrine as well as with Rand's philosophy of "Rational Selfishness". Things would be more clear to you if you might ask yourself what did Jesus really mean when he said "love thy neighbor as thy self" ? Do you think he was suggesting that one should put other's interests ahead of one's own? Or did he mean that it's natural and nothing wrong with loving thyself (selfishness), and only that one should extend that same love of the self to others? There is no command or insinuation that one should place the interests of others ahead of self interests. And this is a repeating theme, such as in Ephesians 5:25; 33 "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband". Clearly there is no suggestion that one value his wife greater that himself .. only as equal to the love one has for himself.

I find extreme duplicity with people who are so quick to criticize Christians and the Bible on all sorts of biblical edicts on one hand, only to turn around and criticize them for not following the philosophy on the other. Particularly when the critics so often misinterpret the philosophy. And all of this nonsense about treating everyone else's interests as superior to one's own interests is a statist-collectivist-authoritarian contrivance, just as much as this "turn the other cheek" business. Does it also sound like the Bible commands people to lay down and assume a weak posture by turning the other cheek here: Luke 11:21-"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Does this not suggest that one is justified in guarding himself and his property, including the use of force?
And here: Proverbs 26 A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well. This suggests that it is not just a right but a duty to confront the wicked. And here again: Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide (protection) for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Clearly this passage directly challenges your interpretation of Christian philosophy.

Many people misunderstand Christianity, thinking that it teaches total non-violence and self sacrifice, when it simply does not. Jesus didn't tell Peter to put away his sword because he should not engage in self defense ... only that he be overwhelmingly outnumbered, and therefore ill advised to take that approach.



First of all, you misunderstand those values .. place your own definition on them, and then claim others are failing to follow your definition. The problem is your definition.

Secondly, it is not the Christian community driving the train toward never ending war in the Middle East ... it's primarily the NEOCON traitors on the so-called right, and the duel citizen Israelis in congress, AIPAC, ADL, etc that want American blood to spill fighting Israel's enemies. People that support this, be they Christian or not, have simply been deceived.

To claim that Christianity, and by extension Jesus Christ himself, taught that selfishness is a Godly value just defines explanation. You accuse the other poster of not understanding Christianity, yet your words reveal the depth of your own lack of knowledge. It's easy to cherry-pick verses out of context and make that "case," but it denies the totality of the Scriptures which are all about submission and love, not selfish aggrandizement at the expense of others.

Philippians 2:3-4 sums it quite succinctly:

[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Here are other translations which might make it more clear than the KJV:

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

[whogo]

My reading of the NT tells me that Jesus pushed private charity...not the welfare state. Is there a verse I do not know of where Jesus praised Keynes?