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Those coal miners can easily find another job that pays what they make, and a hell of a lot cleaner (now I sound like a republican......)
A coal miner is making 60 to 70K with a HS diploma. Where are they going to find a job like that?
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No joke, there are streams that run green in Pennsylvania.
There is lot of acid run off but these issues were created 100 years ago. Actually new mining activity is paying to clean up these abandoned mines.
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Most other countries are moving so far ahead of us in terms of technology and we still sit here whining about coal because of un-progressive people such as yourself afraid to evolve for profit.
Most nations have little or no reserves, they have no choice.
The real reason for coal plants shutting down is the fall of price in natural gas. They are the casualty of free markets. The only way to save them would be to get the government involved in subsidizing them, and I think that it out of the question.
The real reason for coal plants shutting down is the fall of price in natural gas. They are the casualty of free markets.
That's partly the reason but not the only reason. The current CO2 cap proposals which will be effective for any coal plant built after March of this next year are unattainable effectively preventing any coal plant from being built.
This is the honeymoon and the cost of NG will come back up, when it does coal is effectively out of the picture no matter what the cost of NG is.
Note the red line, it was at this time last year the cost of NG dipped below the cost of coal.
This is the honeymoon and the cost of NG will come back up, when it does coal is effectively out of the picture no matter what the cost of NG is.
That's the nature of free markets. If the price of NG does go up, and people see profit in coal again, they will re-open. If there is no profit, they will not reopen. I do not support the government funding unprofitable coal mines to keep the in business. Same with oil. There is oil in the ground, and there are permits, but in many cases the oil companies do not drill because the oil is in places where it would be too expansive to extract, so there is no profit and the oil stays in the groud.
That's the nature of free markets. If the price of NG does go up, and people see profit in coal again, they will re-open. If there is no profit, they will not reopen.
The majority of the coal plants that have closed will not reopen because of the new mercury standards that will decrease deposition rates in the US 1% to 10% resulting in the average IQ increasing 2/1000 of one point. Any new coal plant cannot be built under the CO2 regualtions, that leaves us with whatever is in operation now assuming no more regulations. You can't have a free market competition when the only competition has been eliminated by regulations.
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I do not support the government funding unprofitable coal mines to keep the in business.
I'm certainly not suggesting that but pointing out they are being regulated out of business. Suggesting the coal industry hasn't been effectively shut down is like trying to argue we haven't banned guns if there was a bullet ban.
See that red line above, what do you think is going to happen now especially with so little competition from coal? Our governement has effectively regulated out business the largest fossil fuel reserve on the planet held by any nation bar none. It's amazing to me people would talk about energy independence in one sentence and decide coal is not part of that equation.
The majority of the coal plants that have closed will not reopen because of the new mercury standards that will decrease deposition rates in the US 1% to 10% resulting in the average IQ increasing 2/1000 of one point. Any new coal plant cannot be built under the CO2 regualtions, that leaves us with whatever is in operation now assuming no more regulations. You can't have a free market competition when the only competition has been eliminated by regulations.
They will reopen if there is profit to be made. It is as simple as that. If coal becomes a 'must have' item due to high price of alrernatives, it will become profitable to mine it again.
They will reopen if there is profit to be made. It is as simple as that. If coal becomes a 'must have' item due to high price of alrernatives, it will become profitable to mine it again.
No they won't, the plants that have closed are older and would have been retired in the not so distant future under normal circumstances anyway. The retrofits are not worth the expense, it's like owning a beat up 1970's car and putting $4K worth of pollution control on it to meet today's standards. Without the CO2 caps it would be cheaper in the long term to build a new one.......with the CO2 caps you simply can't.
No they won't, the plants that have closed are older and would have been retired in the not so distant future under normal circumstances anyway.
Where's the beef if they were going to close no matter what?
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The retrofits are not worth the expense, it's like owning a beat up 1970's car and putting $4K worth of pollution control on it to meet today's standards. Without the CO2 caps it would be cheaper in the long term to build a new one.......with the CO2 caps you simply can't. Understand yet?
Yes, you can, if there is a proifit to be made. That's the part you don't understand. If demand of coal goes up due to rise in price of NG, or some other factors, then coal becomes profitable and they will mine it.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 09-27-2012 at 08:16 AM..
I did read the link. They used dramatic sensationalism journalism to rant on about the coal industry being under attack. In my opinion; good. Those coal miners can easily find another job that pays what they make, and a hell of a lot cleaner (now I sound like a republican......)
A rather thick-headed and irresponsible post, don't you think?
Cheering an irresponsible government for destroying a man's job just because you don't like what he does, and glibly tell him to get another job, is very cold, callous and selfish.
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Originally Posted by SPSGuy
Coal is a dirty and bad source of energy. I am from Appalachia. I see the attack this industry does on the environment. Streams that use to be filled with trout, now literally green from the acidic run off. No joke, there are streams that run green in Pennsylvania. Regulating industry is a good thing, and yes I am a socialist. You people who rant on about industry are all for fn this environment up so bad for profit that my son will never even see any clean environment in the east for his future. Regulate the hell out of these greedy capitalistic thugs. Good for them.
All forms of energy involve a dirty messy process at some point. Where do you think the hundreds of tons of steel come from for a two hundred wind mill, wind farm?? Where do you think the heavy metals used in solar cells, or the sources for natural gas and nuclear power come from?
This is the ugly side of socialism, where dim-witted bureaucrats and ideologues sit in their ivory towers, passing judgement on the masses, based on nothing but their own person feelings and their political and ideological agendas. We saw this in the 1980s-1990s, bureaucrats decided to mandate MTBE be used in all gasoline fuel, and then they ended up poisoning the ground water with the cancer causing MTBE.
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Originally Posted by SPSGuy
Most other countries are moving so far ahead of us in terms of technology and we still sit here whining about coal because of un-progressive people such as yourself afraid to evolve for profit.
In Saudi Arabia they have made advances in desalinization plants, to turn salt water into fresh water. They "are moving so far ahead of us in terms of technology." Why? Because they have no other choice, they have no fresh water in that arid, dry sand-covered land. While we "un-progressive," knuckle-draggers are still drinking water from rivers, lakes, and underground water sources like aquifers.
If we want to transition from coal, fine and dandy, but let's do it in a measured and controlled manner, where we build cleaner replacement power plants. The socialist way, is for dim-witted bureaucrats in the EPA to kill off coal production, force coal-fired power plants to close, and destroy people's jobs and create a void in our electrical grid, with nothing to replace the loss of electrical power.
Stalin used progress, with the point of a gun, to transform Russia into a modernized 20th century country. Doesn't the left ever learn from the lessons of history, or do you think we can do it better if we just go about it in a bit kindlier fashion then say, Mao and Stalin?
Where's the beef if they were going to close no matter what?
They build a replacement power plant, and then retire the old one. A taxi cab driver buys a new cab, as he retires his old one, the EPA way is for him to give away his old cab, and walk for the next few years until he can get the money together to buy a new one.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Yes, you can, if there is a proifit to be made. That's the part you don't understand. If demand of coal goes up due to rise in NG, or some other factors, then coal becomes profitable and they will mine it.
Sorry pal, but the Obama admin has made the new air quality laws so out of step with reality, that it's becoming increasingly economically unfeasible to meet them.
One electric company near me just spent $150 million to meet the new clean air standards from the Bush administration. The modifications doubled the size of these power plants, installing smokestack scrubbers to remove particulate mater and other toxins. Then Obama comes along, writes new regs, and suddenly, coal-fired power plants in the US are in violation. How in the hell can any sensible government create new EPA laws that put these plants in violation, when they just got done spending $150 million?
Destroying coal, not trying to move forward, not trying to progress, just destroy coal, and let the energy industry try and pick up the pieces and find a way out of their debt. Tell me, how is an electrical coop supposed to repay their $150 million loan, when the EPA just shut down some of their power plants?
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