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Whoever isn't christian? I've spent my life "conforming" to people who want to pray before meals and whatnot. I'm not interested, I shut up and go along to be polite. I shouldn't have to though should I? Nobody should. That's why religion should be private. If for no other reason than to prevent really stupid controversies like this from popping up every other day but also to teach religious people tolerance of those who aren't, like those of us who aren't have had to do for them since forever. Learn the lessons, live the lessons, don't keep pushing it because being annoying isn't a goal in life and sure isn't a commandment.
I think these students are actually performing a valuable service by bringing to light the very deliberate and overt hypocrisy and extreme double think on the part of the adults who should freaking know better. And for that, I applaud them, and their intelligence for understanding this concept of freedom, in spite of the efforts to brainwash them.
At least these kids apparently understand that their rights of free speech and freedom of expressing their religion means that they have every right to do this ... and they are now forcing the hypocrites to expose themselves and the double talk about freedom.
These freedoms are protected by the constitution, and the constitution doesn't stipulate any restrictions based on location or geography. Fact is, it is only private property that such a right COULD BE restricted .. as it is the property owner who has the right to decide what takes place on HIS property. Public property ... meaning the property which is owned by the people is EXACTLY where these types of restrictions would constitute a violation of rights by the government. The constitution does not prohibit an individual from restricting activities on private property ... the constitution therefore can only be referring to the government restricting the rights of the people on THEIR collectively owned property!!
Fact is, it's absurd to suggest that such freedom should be restricted from "public" display ... that's really the ONLY place where the need for such protection actually exists.
7
If the framers of the constitution had in mind what you suggest, they would have said so ... like "all citizens have the right to free speech and freedom of religious expression only in the privacy of their own homes, but nowhere in public view."
Im not suggesting anything contrary to what you state here. Quite tbe opposite, I see us in complete agreement. This should be a learning experience for these kids (and the adults as well) on the freedoms we enjoy in this country. I think they had the right idea...but could have been more prepared for the wailing and handwringing anti religion( anti CHRISTIAN actually)my backlash. However, it seems to be working out for them.
Stupidity and superstition in America continues unabated. At least the normal areas are becoming less religious, should take a generation to bleed into the sticks.
Whoever isn't christian? I've spent my life "conforming" to people who want to pray before meals and whatnot. I'm not interested, I shut up and go along to be polite. I shouldn't have to though should I? Nobody should. That's why religion should be private. If for no other reason than to prevent really stupid controversies like this from popping up every other day but also to teach religious people tolerance of those who aren't, like those of us who aren't have had to do for them since forever. Learn the lessons, live the lessons, don't keep pushing it because being annoying isn't a goal in life and sure isn't a commandment.
Do you live in that town and attend the football games ?
If not then why care what they do ?
I would care. If someone had a problem I would side with them in stating their viewpoint also. But as there is no one complaining..................
See, that's where we differ. I don't assume that no one's offended just because no one's got the guts to complain. Most teenagers probably don't want to be "that" guy or girl who complained to mommy and daddy (or a teacher, principal, etc.) that something virtually everyone else seems to be fine with is bothering them. It's been a while since I've been in high school, but I don't imagine it's become cool to "ruin the fun" for the majority of your peers.
But that's neither here nor there. Expressions of your religious belief should be easily and unquestionably identifiable as expressions of your faith and entirely independent from the school function itself. This is not merely freedom of speech on public property; it's mixing religious views in with a school function payed for, at least in part, by the local or state government.
See, that's where we differ. I don't assume that no one's offended just because no one's got the guts to complain. Most teenagers probably don't want to be "that" guy or girl who complained to mommy and daddy (or a teacher, principal, etc.) that something virtually everyone else seems to be fine with is bothering them. It's been a while since I've been in high school, but I don't imagine it's become cool to "ruin the fun" for the majority of your peers.
But that's neither here nor there. Expressions of your religious belief should be easily and unquestionably identifiable as expressions of your faith and entirely independent from the school function itself. This is not merely freedom of speech on public property; it's mixing religious views in with a school function payed for, at least in part, by the local or state government.
Christianity is not merely private but is also communal. So why couldn't the school express a religious faith corporately - as a school - if it chose to do so?
As long as attendance is voluntary, students aren't forced to participate, and the expression of minority religious views is permitted, what on earth is the problem?
Stupidity and superstition in America continues unabated. At least the normal areas are becoming less religious, should take a generation to bleed into the sticks.
This is exactly what Im talking about. Insulting and derogatory language from the "enlightened urban intellects ". All through this thread terms like "podunk" "the sticks" and such pervade the writings of wannabe elites who know whats good for us poor backward country bumpkins. Puhhleeeeze!! As if being a rural dweller makes one automatically inferior in mental capacity to some clown who sucks smog and doesnt know that meat doesnt grow on trees and vines. If urban centers are such intellectual utopias and the centers of enlightened thought why then do they have issues far in excess of that in rural areas wher God and Guns are part of the social structure? Oh sure...cities have that to..animaliztic pseudo relivions grown around vile music, gangs with automatic weapons turning neighborhoods into war zones. Sheesh! I have tried to keep my cool and offer calm debate on this thread...but dung like this quoted post boil my spuds! People in glass houses pard...ring any bells ?
Christianity is not merely private but is also communal. So why couldn't the school express a religious faith corporately - as a school - if it chose to do so?
First off, you guys need to get your story straight, as to whether this is an expression of personal faith or something meant to represent the school. Second, I've pretty much detailed why a school should not do this, as well as why the cheerleaders shouldn't be allowed to do it. Pick a post, any post. I don't know which point you would have me elaborate on
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
As long as attendance is voluntary, students aren't forced to participate, and the expression of minority religious views is permitted, what on earth is the problem?
What makes you think the expression of minority religious views would be permitted in the same exact way? Why do you imagine the cheerleaders (the majority of which we must conclude are Christian) would be A-OK with throwing the following on their banner next time around? What makes you think the football players would be every bit as okay with running through it as if it represents what they stand for?
"
Oh Great Goddess
Bless this day
Keep me safe and whole
Oh Great Goddess
Bless my path
Help me to act on thy wisdom
"
Attendance is voluntary for the people showing up to watch it, not for the cheerleaders or players who practically are being forced to participate thanks to one group who thinks blending of personal religious customs with city or state-funded school events is a good idea.
First off, you guys need to get your story straight, as to whether this is an expression of personal faith or something meant to represent the school.
Sorry, I'm not coming at this from the perspective of contemporary jurisprudence which tends to legally isolate the individual. What happened at this school is clearly the corporate religious expression of the large majority of students and probably the administration as well. It's true that groups are collections of individuals, and those individuals have rights - but I'll let others argue for individual rights in this case. I'm interested in the corporate aspect of this. I'd like to know why the voluntary association known as a school should not have the right of religious expression as a school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Second, I've pretty much detailed why a school should not do this, as well as why the cheerleaders shouldn't be allowed to do it. Pick a post, any post. I don't know which point you would have me elaborate on
I haven't read all of your posts. I get the legal and constitutional pretzel twisting. I don't understand begrudging a voluntary group the right to express its religious faith corporately just because some few members might not agree. That's a matter for the group to resolve amongst its own members. I don't believe the Constitution, legitimately interpreted, stands in the way at all, but if it did that's a problem with the Constitution and not with the school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
What makes you think the expression of minority religious views would be permitted in the same exact way? Why do you imagine the cheerleaders (the majority of which we must conclude are Christian) would be A-OK with throwing the following on their banner next time around? What makes you think the football players would be every bit as okay with running through it as if it represents what they stand for?
"
Oh Great Goddess
Bless this day
Keep me safe and whole
Oh Great Goddess
Bless my path
Help me to act on thy wisdom
"
Perhaps the religious expression of minority students or faculty can't be expressed "in the same way". So what? Being in the minority has its downside. Bummer! So long as they are not coerced into participating in something religiously objectionable, and are free to express themselves without limiting the free expression of others, I don't understand what the problem is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Attendance is voluntary for the people showing up to watch it, not for the cheerleaders or players who practically are being forced to participate thanks to one group who thinks blending of personal religious customs with city or state-funded school events is a good idea.
Did the school refuse to accommodate a cheerleader or player who didn't want to participate? I must have missed that part.
This is exactly what Im talking about. Insulting and derogatory language from the "enlightened urban intellects ". All through this thread terms like "podunk" "the sticks" and such pervade the writings of wannabe elites who know whats good for us poor backward country bumpkins. Puhhleeeeze!! As if being a rural dweller makes one automatically inferior in mental capacity to some clown who sucks smog and doesnt know that meat doesnt grow on trees and vines. If urban centers are such intellectual utopias and the centers of enlightened thought why then do they have issues far in excess of that in rural areas wher God and Guns are part of the social structure? Oh sure...cities have that to..animaliztic pseudo relivions grown around vile music, gangs with automatic weapons turning neighborhoods into war zones. Sheesh! I have tried to keep my cool and offer calm debate on this thread...but dung like this quoted post boil my spuds! People in glass houses pard...ring any bells ?
I didn't say no rural people were intelligent but those rural Republican areas still have the same religious nut mindset they did 50 years ago where they live their life by a mean spirited book of myths. The rest of the developed world has largely abandoned religion, United States is dead last there and it's very shameful. It's changing for the better but I'll be an old man by the time the US is as nonreligious as Western Europe is in 2012.
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