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They are saying that they need to pay more to help fund the government, yet they are in court to avoid it. Given that, am I really supposed to believe that they really want to pay more? They can say anything they want, but when they have a team of lawyers to avoid exactly what they say they want, I call BS.
These two things have nothing to do w/ each other. Worse case scenario, it's someone saying "You gave me boundaries to play in, so I'm playing in them. So unless you change the rules (which I'm okay w/ btw), I'm going to fight to stay in those boundaries).
Let's say everything you said is fact... you're still not understanding how taxes work. Even w/ all the deductions, the rich are still paying X. The status quo is a marginal rate of .35X. The rich are saying we're fine paying .38X.
i know EXACTLY how taxes work. remember i have tax accounting training. if a business makes $500,000 per year, they are taxed at a particular rate, in this case 35% at this point. but they dont PAY that rate, as they have deductions, allowances, and loopholes they can use to LOWER their taxable income, the reducing the amount of tax they pay. if you were to raise their tax rate to 38%, the business owner might tell you they are fine with you doing that, and then turn around and tell their accountant to cut expenses, find another deduction, allowance, or other loophole they can use to lower their tax payments, or they will pass the costs onto their customers.
for example, lets take a full service hotel for instance. this includes a full service restaurant and bar, and perhaps live entertainment. now lets say you raise the tax rate this hotel pays each year. the owners have several options to reduce the costs of the higher taxes;
1: they can raise room rates
2: they can increase food and beverage prices
3: they can cut back on or eliminate the live entertainment
4: they can shorten the hours of the restaurant and bar
5: they can cut back on the amenities in the rooms
6: they can do a combination of all of the above.
and yes i have worked in the hotel business for 25 years so i know what they can and will do to maintain their profit margins. and these are only a FEW of the things i can think of that a hotel can do to cut costs.
They probably have all their money hedged against actually paying those higher taxes.
And yet how many have written checks to the US Treasury ? Why are they for this yet need to wait for tax law changes ?
More hype then reality if you ask me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82
It tells you that they have loopholes that will protect them because they live off of interest from sources that aren't taxed (trusts). They aren't stupid. Any money they allow to be taxed is chum for the sharks while they swim the other way.
Good lord... we're talking about close to 70% of millionaires saying to tax more of their income, and your defense is that they're not talking about their income. If the question was about their paychecks, I'd concede that maybe some of them were being disingenuous with their answers. But it wasn't. It was about income.
Good lord... we're talking about close to 70% of millionaires saying to tax more of their income, and your defense is that they're not talking about their income. If the question was about their paychecks, I'd concede that maybe some of them were being disingenuous with their answers. But it wasn't. It was about income.
Do you know that Warren Buffet's "income" is only $100K per year ?
That is what the man takes as a salary.
And he is the loudest of them all about "taxing the rich".
Bill Gates....Gates Foundation
Michael Dell....Dell Foundation
The rich have their money socked away in Trusts, Foundations and assets.
These two things have nothing to do w/ each other. Worse case scenario, it's someone saying "You gave me boundaries to play in, so I'm playing in them. So unless you change the rules (which I'm okay w/ btw), I'm going to fight to stay in those boundaries).
If they would say "(which I'm okay w/ btw)," it makes no sense that they fight that hard (going to court and paying lawyers) instead of saying they're okay with what the IRS said they needed to pay. Their actions are to spend millions of dollars on tax lawyers to try to reduce the amount they pay each year, and I'm supposed to believe they're really okay with paying more - not only that - saying they should pay more.
Do you think that if their tax rates are raised, they'll say "yeah, this is about what I should be paying, let's reduce the legal team because I'm okay with it?"
I understand what you're saying, I just find it to be empty rhetoric from Buffett et al.
i know EXACTLY how taxes work. remember i have tax accounting training. if a business makes $500,000 per year, they are taxed at a particular rate, in this case 35% at this point. but they dont PAY that rate, as they have deductions, allowances, and loopholes they can use to LOWER their taxable income, the reducing the amount of tax they pay. if you were to raise their tax rate to 38%, the business owner might tell you they are fine with you doing that, and then turn around and tell their accountant to cut expenses, find another deduction, allowance, or other loophole they can use to lower their tax payments, or they will pass the costs onto their customers.
for example, lets take a full service hotel for instance. this includes a full service restaurant and bar, and perhaps live entertainment. now lets say you raise the tax rate this hotel pays each year. the owners have several options to reduce the costs of the higher taxes;
1: they can raise room rates
2: they can increase food and beverage prices
3: they can cut back on or eliminate the live entertainment
4: they can shorten the hours of the restaurant and bar
5: they can cut back on the amenities in the rooms
6: they can do a combination of all of the above.
and yes i have worked in the hotel business for 25 years so i know what they can and will do to maintain their profit margins. and these are only a FEW of the things i can think of that a hotel can do to cut costs.
If you know how taxes work, why are you using a blatantly false premise. The only way your premise makes sense is if someone purposely underreported deductions at the lower rate, but then decided "you know what... I'm going to use ALL instead of SOME of the deductions I claimed before." No. I don't know anyone that would purposely underreport their deductions.
The much more honest scenario is that in 2002 - 2012, people did claim the maximum deductions that they could claim. They were left w/ an AGI, and from that they decide... can I afford to pay 3% more of that in taxes? And 70% of millionaires said... "Yes I can."
If you know how taxes work, why are you using a blatantly false premise. The only way your premise makes sense is if someone purposely underreported deductions at the lower rate, but then decided "you know what... I'm going to use ALL instead of SOME of the deductions I claimed before." No. I don't know anyone that would purposely underreport their deductions.
The much more honest scenario is that in 2002 - 2012, people did claim the maximum deductions that they could claim. They were left w/ an AGI, and from that they decide... can I afford to pay 3% more of that in taxes? And 70% of millionaires said... "Yes I can."
you STILL DONT get it do you? i am not saying that they are under reporting deductions, what i am saying is THEY WILL FIND NEW ONES. my premise isnt false, your deduction of my premise is what is false. and it isnt just deductions either, as you left out much of what i posted, including passing the cost of the higher taxes onto others, cutting expenses, etc.
as i said before these people are not stupid otherwise they would not be rich. they will find ways to avoid paying the higher taxes. in fact here is one way i overlooked, tax free foundations. look it up you might get an education.
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,300 posts, read 4,406,723 times
Reputation: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good
Good lord... we're talking about close to 70% of millionaires saying to tax more of their income, and your defense is that they're not talking about their income. If the question was about their paychecks, I'd concede that maybe some of them were being disingenuous with their answers. But it wasn't. It was about income.
I can guarantee you that a millionaire isn't a millionaire due to his "income". They will be happy to have you think they are progressive by allowing the government to tax their income. "Tax me here, but don't look over there".
I think Democrats have been doing themselves a disservice by trying to garner support from Americans in general for raising taxes on the rich b/c that plays into the rhetoric of class warfare. What they should be doing is pointing out the rich believe that they should pay more taxes.
A couple of times a year since Obama took office a poll is done that highlights a majority of people making over $1M/year support raising taxes on themselves. When Obama first came into office, that # was barely over 50%. The latest one I could find has it close to 70%.
This is a message straight from the horse's mouth. And when you weigh it against the fact there are rich people that oppose paying any taxes on principle, not financials, that should have been the nail in the coffin on the tax debate.
What does it matter if these people are millionaires or not, they still need to mind their own business, and quit trying to use the power of government to ram their ideology down throats of everyone.
If you, or anyone else thinks they should pay a 25% or 35% tax rate, then calculate it and pay it. No one is forcing these wealthy people to take tax deductions. Obama and Biden are good examples of this, if they think their fair share is 30%, then stop taking deductions. Obama only paid a 20% tax rate, while his secretary pays a higher rate.
The problem with liberals is, if they get a single thought freaking in their head, they run to government and try to force everyone else to adopt that same thought, or face the wrath of government fines and punishments.
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