America post collapse: what's next? (enemies, ethical, weapons, nationalist)

[WesternPilgrim]

I'm not smart enough to know whether economic collapse is imminent, but a lot of smart people think it is - or it will be unless drastic measures are taken. All civilizations collapse at some point. Why should America be the exception?

Let's suppose that in the very near future - say 2020 or sooner - America finds herself with a sharply divided population, without a political consensus of any kind, without a first world economy, without a meaningful Constitution, and without a federal government strong enough to hold the nation together.

When civilizations go bad, they go bad in different ways. Some turn to military dictators. Some turn to ideological fanaticism. Some dissolve and divide into perpetually warring factions. Some are overrun by foreign enemies. What's next for America?

[Savoir Faire]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

I'm not smart ......

Could not agree more

[freightshaker]

We have turned into more and more of a democracy. Every democracy in the history of the world has been followed by dictatorship.

[bluesjuke]

Tribal conclaves perhaps?

[nicet4]

Originally Posted by bluesjuke

Tribal conclaves perhaps?

Golden Dawn and it won't be pretty.

BBC News - Greece far-right party Golden Dawn: 'We are in civil war'

[crone]

Most of my neighbors have been stockpiling weapons and ammunition since O was elected.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

I'm not smart enough to know whether economic collapse is imminent,...

It isn't, so don't worry about it. A family of 3 having no choice but to share a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment with another family of 3-4 people in order to afford cable, broadband, cell-phones, Sega, Nintendo, X-Box, World of Warcraft, Netlfix, a 2nd car, coffee at Starsux etc, is not economic collapse, rather it is simply a [much needed] restructuring of priorities, needs, wants, life-styles, and values.

Yes, I suppose some, distraught at the prospect of having their World of Warcraft subscription cancelled for non-payment might choose to end their own life, but that is how Darwinism works, and it is ultimately in everyone's best interest.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

... but a lot of smart people think it is....

Those people are not smart. They are greedy, unethical and immoral, lying by omission, and misrepresenting and distorting facts in order to profit off of the gullible, the ill-informed, the ignorant, the uneducated, and the crisis-seekers.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

.... - or it will be unless drastic measures are taken.

Too late for that. The time to act was 15 years ago during the Clinton Administration.

You are going to go over the fiscal edge. There's no stopping that.

However, you still have some measure of control. You can decide if going over the [fiscal] cliff will result in 5 mile free-fall terminating in close contact with a stationary object -- namely the ground -- or if you will merely tumble endlessly down a very steep slope, breaking your neck and remaining paralyzed the rest of your history.

Don't be too hard on yourself....it's the nature of people.

The miserable mass of men will never do what is just and proper and right, unless someone sticks a gun to their head and forces them to act under penalty of death.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

All civilizations collapse at some point. Why should America be the exception?

It shouldn't, and the parallels between the US Empire and the Greek and Roman Empires are, shall we say, extraordinary.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Let's suppose that in the very near future - say 2020 or sooner - America finds herself with a sharply divided population, without a political consensus of any kind,....

2020? You've had that for at least 10 years now and it was building before that.

And it will continue.

Historically, the end to all such ideological conflicts have culminated in violence (with one exception where a natural disaster preempted the violence).

The current rift will continue to expand and become exacerbated, since you have 50% of the people who are busting their asses working, and then the other 50% demanding that they get 90% of what the 50% have.

They'll get their just desserts.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

... without a first world economy, without a meaningful Constitution, and without a federal government strong enough to hold the nation together.

The fault in your premise there is that you don't have a federal government.

At most you have a pseudo-federal government which is nothing more than a quasi-unitary State nationalistic government masquerading as a federal government.

Your national government exercises way too much control, which is exactly what the Framers of the Constitution did not want, and that is why they created a republic with a federal system of government.

Your salvation lies exclusively in the total restoration of the federal republic on which the US was founded under the Constitutional Government.

When you have restored the US to the way the founders intended it to be -- and they chose a federal republic for a specific reason....namely they were a helluva lot smarter and knowledgeable about things like geography and demographers than these twits are nowadays -- you will know, because it will be the States that have tax brackets of 10%-35% and not the federal government -- which would be collecting at most 3% taxes (perhaps based on income or a VAT).

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

When civilizations go bad, they go bad in different ways. Some turn to military dictators. Some turn to ideological fanaticism. Some dissolve and divide into perpetually warring factions. Some are overrun by foreign enemies. What's next for America?

Not for a while, 2028 or so, maybe a division just like the old Roman Empire into East and West Americas for administrative purposes.

Or perhaps something like France, which created "economic zones," so the US would be divided into economic regions (perhaps along the current district scheme), and then the dictator, oops, I meant the president will appoint a "czar" to govern the regions -- and that's probably just as well, because I don't think anyone could tolerate even more campaign advertisements if the regional district "governors" were elected.

There's also the possibility of a merger. There's no doubt that repeated attempts have been made to sync the economies of Mexico and the US.

But it's best just to let the chips fall where they may, rather than interfere. The idiots in government, not understand why the economy is presently the way it is interfered and made things worse, and because they did, people will suffer [proportionally] that much more.

I'm sure everyone will be looking forward to that.

Same with the ideological rift. Since nothing can ameliorate it, it's best to do nothing, because interfering will only drive it underground where it will fester even worse. The prescription here is let it play out, until one side slaughters the other in a civil war and then its over.

Until next time.

#DIV/0!....


Mircea

[theflipflop]

I've been wondering lately, if we go ahead and elect Obama, that will likely speed up the collapse of the American way. Then perhaps we'll react properly as a nation and create a new and better reality that will be lasting and permanent.

If we elect Romney, he's probably just good enough to keep things moving along in the lousy way it has been the last 20 or so years, and this will not affect any positive change any sooner.

So the question really is: do we allow ourselves to quickly hit rock bottom by re-electing Obama and then begin meaningful change, or do we elect Romney and sustain our current lousy state just a bit longer?

[ABQConvict]

I suggest that an economic collapse will be forseen. While a societal collapse due to economic system deterioration may be inevitable, it takes a few years especially in a body as large and (potentially) economically diverse as the U.S.

To some degree, this will be mitigated by the inevitable privitization that fills in where government is unable to, and certain states, mostly wealthier blue states will have the governmental strength to transfer constitutional authority to within their borders at the state level. Ironic since the people waving the constitution in the air with froth at their mouths would not want a government strong enough to enforce it.

The fact of the matter is that while the U.S. is a top heavy, vastly overstretched Federal system, its states (and potential regional coalitions) are survivable. Some might even say that an economic collapse would bring about the closest thing to an economically conservative utopia that could happen in our current society. Ironically, Conservative politics wants to enact this through government rather than letting it happen organically. If you were a true economic conservative, you would welcome any political authority in the U.S. that would fail the economy, thus reduce the efficacy of Federal government.

Of course since the ranks of the Conservative political field are filled by social conservatives, big government is necessary to maintain their Judeo-Christian social compact.

[pch1013]

Oh, look, the Ebola troll is back.