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Old 11-07-2012, 02:55 AM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,722,153 times
Reputation: 1527

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Conservatives need to face certain realities: it isn't just Obama, it's the American people. This country has lost it. We need a new survival paradigm.

Perhaps we should take our cues from Old World conservatives, who have survived for generations as a defeated but vigorous minority in countries dominated by leftism.

Because that's what it's about today: not victory, but survival.

We can take heart in that a traditionalist sub-culture exists in America with its own movements and institutions. But Obama could put a big dent in those institutions. If push comes to shove and the Obama administration doesn't back down, many of these institutions could be forced into bankruptcy by non-compliance fines. So much for sending your children to one of the many small, orthodox, Catholic liberal arts colleges in the country. So much for a career in healthcare or social work at a religious hospital or charity. All such venues may be forced to either close or be corrupted under Obamacare. Already in California state mandates have placed the profession of teaching in public schools out of reach for serious Christians. And the list goes on ...

In the United States it's not going to be violent, bloody martyrdom or anything. Not anytime soon. But it does seem that we are on a trajectory of gradually excluding Christians from public life in various ways. With the state mandating that certain jobs and activities openly facilitate evil, we are faced with either treason to our faith or retreat from society. The underground.

Well, European conservatives - and they do exist - have lived under such conditions for a long time. I suggest we find out how they have managed, what they have done to survive, and how they navigate the moral and spiritual minefield of their respective societies. It's about survival now.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:19 AM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,261,979 times
Reputation: 7950
I think this is similar to 2004. Libs had so much invested in opposing Bush, and when he won re-election, they jsut became unhinged and unglued.

Simillarly, we conservatives had a lot invested in defeating Obama, but failed. Now we have to keep our heads, and avoid falling into the derangement syndrome that afflicted the libs back in 2004.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:26 AM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,722,153 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
I think this is similar to 2004. Libs had so much invested in opposing Bush, and when he won re-election, they jsut became unhinged and unglued.
Which was totally senseless, because Bush paved the way for Obama and helped them along - just a little slower than they would have liked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Simillarly, we conservatives had a lot invested in defeating Obama, but failed. Now we have to keep our heads, and avoid falling into the derangement syndrome that afflicted the libs back in 2004.
But the Obamacare scenario in the OP is real. It will come to pass unless Obama eventually backs down.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:26 AM
 
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
745 posts, read 911,383 times
Reputation: 871
European conservatives strive quite nicely here in Europe. Here in Germany, they even run the government. And are quite successful at doing so. Angela Merkel, for example, enjoys huge approval ratings.

But then again, Euro conservatives aren't shrill, bug-eyed hysterical loons like the OP and American conservatives. In fact, most European conservatives support Obama by overwhelming numbers.

European conservatives are sane, logical, and rational. American conservatives are not.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:35 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,010,926 times
Reputation: 19908
Surely your God will prevail ? In this life or the next, what does it matter, his will be done and all that....Works in mysterious ways doesn't he ?

I have many Christian friends and they don't seem to be suffering too much under "European conditons", their survival is pretty assured. Nobody has stopped them from believing in God or practising their faith. Two of them are vicars in fact and no sign of trauma there....

They go to Church whenever they feel like it, and are not harassed for it. I know it's hard to believe but Europeans Secularists do not spend their lives thinking of cruel ways to torture Christians.

In many European countries ( Europe being a rather large and varied place) Legislation means that public funded institutions comply with the concept of separation of state and church which is only right and proper. And yet many Christians are leaders of governments, communities, businesses and rather successful nonetheless. Without the shrill holier than thou intolerant bigotry so common in American Christians. Faith does not belong in public policies, other than that knock yourself believing whatever you wish.

A secular society does not mean the ostracisation of Christians, it is more a question of accepting that many people lead secular lives or share other beliefs . It is certainly a lot more inclusive than Theocracies which exclude other faiths, or Atheism.

I find it sad that so many people live in fear and ignorance. If Christianity modernised a little bit it might have a better chance to keep its audience and appeal. It is its own worse enemy.

If you don't approve of Gay people don't be Gay. If you don't approve of Abortion don't have one. I am pretty sure if your God exists he is big enough to show his ire and smite us for our perceived "sins". How about just letting Him deal with those who offend his sensibilities ? I thought only God could pass judgement ?

Survival is not an issue. As long as you are willing to be tolerant and not wag your finger I could not care less who you worship or not. Most atheists are baffled by faith but do not care one way or another as long as nobody is trying to impose their creed on anyone else. Faith is all about your relationship to God is it not ?

So as long as YOU are faithful, and follows the precept of your faith then what is the problem. I have yet to meet anyone wanting to ban faith. I don't understand it but whatever floats your boat.... When you start imposing dogma though on others and want to legislate then yes I do take issue.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:21 AM
 
9,617 posts, read 5,937,234 times
Reputation: 6540
Quote:
Originally Posted by evan83 View Post

European conservatives are sane, logical, and rational. American conservatives are not.

You nailed it. They call themselves conservatives, what they really are are crazy right-wing extremists and they don't understand why the majority of the country isn't as crazy and loony as they are.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:27 AM
 
Location: E ND & NW MN
4,806 posts, read 9,424,301 times
Reputation: 3556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
Surely your God will prevail ? In this life or the next, what does it matter, his will be done and all that....Works in mysterious ways doesn't he ?

I have many Christian friends and they don't seem to be suffering too much under "European conditons", their survival is pretty assured. Nobody has stopped them from believing in God or practising their faith. Two of them are vicars in fact and no sign of trauma there....

They go to Church whenever they feel like it, and are not harassed for it. I know it's hard to believe but Europeans Secularists do not spend their lives thinking of cruel ways to torture Christians.

In many European countries ( Europe being a rather large and varied place) Legislation means that public funded institutions comply with the concept of separation of state and church which is only right and proper. And yet many Christians are leaders of governments, communities, businesses and rather successful nonetheless. Without the shrill holier than thou intolerant bigotry so common in American Christians. Faith does not belong in public policies, other than that knock yourself believing whatever you wish.

A secular society does not mean the ostracisation of Christians, it is more a question of accepting that many people lead secular lives or share other beliefs . It is certainly a lot more inclusive than Theocracies which exclude other faiths, or Atheism.

I find it sad that so many people live in fear and ignorance. If Christianity modernised a little bit it might have a better chance to keep its audience and appeal. It is its own worse enemy.

If you don't approve of Gay people don't be Gay. If you don't approve of Abortion don't have one. I am pretty sure if your God exists he is big enough to show his ire and smite us for our perceived "sins". How about just letting Him deal with those who offend his sensibilities ? I thought only God could pass judgement ?

Survival is not an issue. As long as you are willing to be tolerant and not wag your finger I could not care less who you worship or not. Most atheists are baffled by faith but do not care one way or another as long as nobody is trying to impose their creed on anyone else. Faith is all about your relationship to God is it not ?

So as long as YOU are faithful, and follows the precept of your faith then what is the problem. I have yet to meet anyone wanting to ban faith. I don't understand it but whatever floats your boat.... When you start imposing dogma though on others and want to legislate then yes I do take issue.
great post!
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:34 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,728,370 times
Reputation: 16599
Quote:
Originally Posted by evan83 View Post
European conservatives strive quite nicely here in Europe. Here in Germany, they even run the government. And are quite successful at doing so. Angela Merkel, for example, enjoys huge approval ratings.

But then again, Euro conservatives aren't shrill, bug-eyed hysterical loons like the OP and American conservatives. In fact, most European conservatives support Obama by overwhelming numbers.

European conservatives are sane, logical, and rational. American conservatives are not.
And this is why moderate Republicans in America need to make a BIG push to take their party back. It's only going to get worse for the right if they continue to allow ultraconservatives to be the loudest in their party.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:35 AM
 
28,206 posts, read 20,728,370 times
Reputation: 16599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
Surely your God will prevail ? In this life or the next, what does it matter, his will be done and all that....Works in mysterious ways doesn't he ?

I have many Christian friends and they don't seem to be suffering too much under "European conditons", their survival is pretty assured. Nobody has stopped them from believing in God or practising their faith. Two of them are vicars in fact and no sign of trauma there....

They go to Church whenever they feel like it, and are not harassed for it. I know it's hard to believe but Europeans Secularists do not spend their lives thinking of cruel ways to torture Christians.

In many European countries ( Europe being a rather large and varied place) Legislation means that public funded institutions comply with the concept of separation of state and church which is only right and proper. And yet many Christians are leaders of governments, communities, businesses and rather successful nonetheless. Without the shrill holier than thou intolerant bigotry so common in American Christians. Faith does not belong in public policies, other than that knock yourself believing whatever you wish.

A secular society does not mean the ostracisation of Christians, it is more a question of accepting that many people lead secular lives or share other beliefs . It is certainly a lot more inclusive than Theocracies which exclude other faiths, or Atheism.

I find it sad that so many people live in fear and ignorance. If Christianity modernised a little bit it might have a better chance to keep its audience and appeal. It is its own worse enemy.

If you don't approve of Gay people don't be Gay. If you don't approve of Abortion don't have one. I am pretty sure if your God exists he is big enough to show his ire and smite us for our perceived "sins". How about just letting Him deal with those who offend his sensibilities ? I thought only God could pass judgement ?

Survival is not an issue. As long as you are willing to be tolerant and not wag your finger I could not care less who you worship or not. Most atheists are baffled by faith but do not care one way or another as long as nobody is trying to impose their creed on anyone else. Faith is all about your relationship to God is it not ?

So as long as YOU are faithful, and follows the precept of your faith then what is the problem. I have yet to meet anyone wanting to ban faith. I don't understand it but whatever floats your boat.... When you start imposing dogma though on others and want to legislate then yes I do take issue.

There is a small but growing movement amount leftist Christians in this country to try and undo the damage that their right wing extremist counterparts have done.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:50 AM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,153,841 times
Reputation: 11619
I gotta say, I think Ron Paul would have had a much better edge than Romney ever would have. At least Paul did what no Republican has been able to do to date: energize the youth and get them on his side. Most people at Ron Paul's rallies were in the 18-30 demographic, super vital to the GOP's survival and would have stolen a lot of Obama's thunder since the youth vote was very vital to him winning
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