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Old 11-22-2012, 01:13 AM
 
Location: USA
31,003 posts, read 22,045,160 times
Reputation: 19060

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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Look at who pays the most. It's NOT the middle class:
Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

The top 1% pays 36.73% of the federal income tax revenue. Show me which 1% within the middle class pays 36.73% of the federal income tax revenue. They don't. Plain and simple.
As percentage of pay we do pay the lions share. Is the reuters chart shown above incorrect?
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:44 AM
 
Location: Planet earth
3,617 posts, read 1,820,390 times
Reputation: 1258
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
---

That is what the most wealthy are doing -- they are not working to make their millions. They are earning money from capital gains and stock options of companies. Companies derive their value from the contribution of their workers. This last year saw record earnings for corporations. So, who will benefit? Not the workers but those who hold investments in those companies---i.e. the rich--- living off of someone else's work. Yes, it is repulsive.
Please answer the following. What is done with this money that the 'wealthy' invest in order for them to earn capital gains? Is this money placed in investments that build factories or grow businesses? Is this money placed in investments that build city roads and city infrastructure via municipal bonds? Does money invested in Walmart, Microsoft, Apple, Utilities, Pharmaceutical companies, or in any other publicly traded company cause construction or employment? Or are these investments that return capital gains just locked into someone's vault somewhere, producing no betterment to society?

I do not understand the angst directed at those who have capital gains. Almost any and everyone invested in the stock market, even if only through their 401K retirement programs has an opportunity to earn capital gain income. So why exactly are capital gains so evil we must tax them at higher rates?

Is it possible you just want to punish those you deem having or earning too much? Finally, if capital gains taxes were raised to your desired level, who benefits and how do they benefit?

I think that if you answer those questions honestly, you will see these tax increases are intended to punish success and at the same time these tax increases do not benefit the low or middle classes like is being sold in order to get the tax raises through Congress.

I've read quite a few posts you made and even though I completely disagree with just about all of your opinions, I believe (hope) you are intelligent enough to set the emotion based rhetoric aside long enough to give my questions fair analysis.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:46 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Rossi View Post
What does "can" have to do with it? Answer, nothing, or it shouldn't in a moral world. Should YOU have to pay more for your next 12-pack of Old English just because you CAN pay more, or pay more than someone else?

You act if there should be no sting to being poor. Well there should be a sting to it - it should hurt like hell, because that is just about the only thing that will motivate them to better themselves, and their lot-in-life. Take out the pain, and what's the point of trying harder? You aren't, in the main, dealing with the cream-of-the-crop, self-starters, self-motivated people when you deal with the poor. They need a boot in the ass to get them in gear so that they too contribute not only to their own existence and future, but to the nation as well. I'd rather put $100K as risk for a venture somebody has to make a new product, or service etc., that will or might make America better, than give a poor person, in effect,, his next pack of smokes, or fotty of Malt Liquor.

Since you're bringing morality into it...do states have moral authority to impose regressive taxes? Does Congress have moral authority to level the tax playing field by imposing taxes sufficiently progressive to offset the regressivity of state and local taxes?
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:54 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Me too. But liberals live to TAKE from others.

Perhaps liberals are merely being more honest and transparent than conservatives when they take from others. Conservatives redistribute wealth upward subtly through regulation (esp local) and tax policy and the reality that economic power is very unequal. Life itself is regressive, taxes shouldn't be.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:59 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Look at who pays the most. It's NOT the middle class:
Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

The top 1% pays 36.73% of the federal income tax revenue. Show me which 1% within the middle class pays 36.73% of the federal income tax revenue. They don't. Plain and simple.

The Bush Tax Cuts (TM) actually increased the share of taxes paid by taxpayers with higher incomes, and reduced the share of taxes paid by taxpayers with middle class and lower incomes.

The vast expansion of tax credits changed it. That's why I've been saying that the Bush Tax Cuts were tax cuts for parents rather than for the rich.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:02 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Maybe it should be hard-working food stamp, section 8, etc., welfare slackers?

Well the food stamp eligibility formula does treat earned income more favorably than unearned income.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:07 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Wealth redistribution to the upper class was a self-imposed problem. The fact that those who suffered under their own choices now want to ignore those consequences is the problem. You want a 98" flat screen, PlayStation, wireless remotes, a thermostat that senses your presence and a Gucci bag to hold those maxed out credit cards only factors in to the stupidity index.

Hmmm, I have none of the things you listed (I don't even have credit cards that are NOT maxed out), but my wealth is redistributed to my employer and my landlord every month. How is this a self-imposed problem? Do you propose I not work and that I live somewhere in the woods?
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:12 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowhound View Post
I'm in no way in shape or form a rich guy, but I find the heart of the wealth redistribution idea majorly offputing.

Why should someone, assuming they worked hard, took some chances, and became weathly be penalized with more and more and more taxes, I think that they should pay, don't get wrong....

I believe that human nature is what it is.... if you get too much free stuff handed to you, you don't work as hard as you could......

Fact.....

I think work effort should have something to do with how much tax people pay, for example someone who earns X dollars and works Y hours should pay more tax than someone who earns X dollars and works 2Y hours. It would be simple enough to require W-2 forms to list the number of hours worked.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:16 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAappraiser View Post
We Americans are blessed to live in a country where even the poorest of the poor can become wealthy simply through the virtue of hard work. To see the many who have abandoned this precious birthright in favor of jealousy and class envy deeply saddens me.

Millions of Americans work hard and have nothing to show for it.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:34 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,443,387 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
The converse is true, as well. There are people who are fully capable of earning millions of dollars who nevertheless, don't. Blows your theory of any self-made high achiever being "given" anything they didn't earn.

How do you know that they are fully capable of earning millions of dollars? I was born with innate abilities but was raised in an environment of total parental fail (and handed off to nonrelatives who also had total fail) and traumatized at a very early age.

And a lot of people esp in my extended family think I am fully capable of earning lots and lots of money - there were great expectations placed on me - but I completely don't see it ever happening.
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