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I agree that libertarian philosophy would mean that people could make an agreement to work for fishheads and a cot in my basement. But is that actually a problem? I employ friends all the time to work on my house for beer. I have had friends who were homeless and down on their luck, who I paid in food, cigarettes, and lodging, and they thought that was a great deal.
Right now the unemployment rate is through the roof. There are many people who are jobless who would be happy to work for less than minimum wage. But it is illegal for them to offer their services for less, and so they remain unemployed. In many major cities, certain ethnic groups have unemployment rates near 50%. What is wrong with them offering to work for fishheads in my basement, if that is all I can afford to pay them, and they are happy with that arrangement?
In Hong Kong, they have foreign domestic servants(maids) who make ~$450 a month plus room and board. They work 6 days a week, basically all day. As housekeepers, babysitters, and cooks. The average worker puts in about 50-60 hours a week. Which would be about 215-260 hours a month. Break that down, thats about $1.73 an hour. Is that fair? Why do these foreigners come to Hong Kong to be maids to make $1.73 an hour? Do you think some Americans would agree to be domestic servants, if they were paid $450 a month plus room and board?
The problem with the obsession of fairness. Is to pretend that somehow by taking low-wage jobs, that the poor are condemned to stay poor. It simply isn't true. I remember being young, and doing work for people for free, just because I was learning. This is similar to "interns", who work for absolutely free, for months at a time, as part of their education. Is that fair?
As for child labor. One of the things that many young men will engage in for money, is lawn-mowing. I remember when I was about thirteen, I had about ten yards I would mow about once a week. Was I engaging in child labor? If a young kid walks up to my front door right now, asking if he can rake my leaves if I pay him, should it be legal for me to employ him? How much should I be required to pay him?
I used to do all kinds of work when I was young. My mothers boyfriend when I was about ten years old, used to drive a big truck, where he would drive from milk farm to milk farm picking up milk from the farmers. They keep the milk in big metal tanks. And we just hooked up a hose and pumped it into the truck. He used to skim some of the milk fat(cream) off the top of the tank into an empty gallon pickle jar. And he would bring it home to my mother, who would turn it into delicious home-made ice cream. Was it child labor if I went with him and helped him all day for like $10 a day? The same guy used to have a big flat-bed trailer, and we would go around picking up metal all over town, which we would recycle. We used to pick up washing machines, and stoves, and air conditioners, and pretty much anything we could get our hands on that was metal. We would cut the copper out of a lot of motors and separate it.
I would go with him to the recycling center, and they might pay him $100, and he would give me $15. Was that abusive child labor practices?
My uncle used to run a cleaning/janitorial business. He cleaned bingo halls and strip clubs. When I was about 12 years old, I worked most of one summer cleaning bingo halls and strip clubs(after they closed, in the middle of the night). My compensation wasn't even money. They bought me a guitar and a super nintendo. I still have the guitar, and that was about 20 years ago. Was that abusive child labor? Should it have been illegal to employ me there?
My uncle would later drive a milk truck when I was about 14, where he would wake up at like 5 AM in the morning, and would deliver milk, mostly to convenience stores. But early in the morning, many of the deliveries were to day-cares. I used to go with him a lot and help him. The compensation was only $10 a day, but he would take me out to eat twice a day. Was that child labor?
The truth is, I have nothing against child labor. But I think children are different than adults, because they don't understand the implications of their decisions. Thus, children for one can't enter into contracts. And they certainly need to be protected from abuse and exploitation. An employer should certainly be required to get consent from the child's parent of guardian. And if there is exploitation or abuse, then the parent or guardian should be guilty of child abuse.
I always find it interesting, that a parent can require their children to do incredible amounts of chores. My friend lived on a farm. And he would work around the farm pretty much every day with his father and grandfather. They owned about 1,000 acres up in Enid, Oklahoma. Had cattle, and grew wheat. Should it be legal for farm kids to work on their farm for little or no compensation from their parents?
When I was young, we all had chores to do. We had to basically keep the entire house clean. My parents didn't wash the dishes. They worked. The kids washed the dishes. And we didn't have a dishwasher. We also vacuumed the living room every day, and kept our rooms clean. And I was responsible for taking out the trash, mowing the lawn, and would help my mother when she was working in the garden. She was always putting in flower beds, and we would go down to pick up mulch in the back of our truck. And I would sit outside for hours shoveling out mulch into the flower beds.
You should have seen our house. There was flower beds all along the front of the house and the side of the house. There was a big "island" in the front yard, with two trees surrounded by flowers and bushes. My sister always called it a "peanut", because it looked kind of like a peanut. With the two trees apart from each other, a big circle around each tree, which overlapped in the middle. We lived on a corner lot. And my mother had flower beds along the entire side fence. Much of the flower beds were really small gardens, rather than for flowers. On one side of the house, we had blackberry bushes. The trees were apple trees. And on the other side of the house, there was cantaloupe and watermelon. Mostly be accident, my mother would just take the seeds from the fruit she would buy from the store, and just throw it all around the flower beds.
My point is, I did a lot of "work" for my family. I remember "helping people move" quite often. Where my services were volunteered to help a friend of family member in their move. Hauling furniture and boxes and things. I remember there was a flood and my cousins backyard ended with a bunch of ruts in it. So they ordered a "load of dirt", which was from a big dump truck. And I spent all day loading wheelbarrows with dirt from the front driveway, and hauling it to the back yard and filling in the voids in the yard. And I didn't get paid jack squat. I couldn't even count all the times I helped people for free in my life. Or worked for what would have been far below minimum wage. Its really not such a big deal. I think people obsess about things too much.
I think its funny because when I think of child labor. I always think of the pictures in the text-books, where theres a kid working in a coal-mine with dirt all over his face. And my gut reaction when I see the picture, is to be appalled. But you know, I could have seen me working in a coal-mine when I was younger, and never thinking anything about it. I mean, my sister works at a convenience store, and she will basically hire my nieces and nephews to come work with her when she is behind. They just clean when they are there. Sweep, mop, clean the soda machines, pick up trash outside, and take out the trash at the pumps, etc. It saves her a little time of having to do the tedious work, so she can focus on doing inventory in the store, and making product orders. They might spend the entire eight hour shift at her store(though they don't work anywhere near the entire time), and she will usually give them about $20. And my nieces will practically fight with each other to get to go work with my sister. Is that child labor abuse?
In my opinion, the problems with child labor, is that it ends up being child abuse by the parents, who just want to make extra money. And many times it interferes with education. It is obviously true that poor children/people will have a difficult time pulling themselves out of poverty, if they are never given a proper education. And parents who exploit their children, should be put in prison, and their kids taken away.
At least you have the strength of your convictions to stand behind the truth of your beliefs.
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Originally Posted by clb10
Amazing.
A person who is clearly uneducated in libertarian philosophy trying to shame someone who, though not an expert, at least has the basic idea down.
You are making a common misrepresentation of libertarianism.
What common misrepresentation. Show me where in Libertarian principles it supports anyone getting in the way of someone agreeing to work in unsafe work conditions, or employing a child to clean chimneys, or anything. It doesn't.
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Libertarianism isn't about person or group "A" taking advantage of person or group "b".
It is about EVERYONE having the SAME protections UNDER LAW.
And those protections are ENFORCED by a government whose MAXIMUM responsibilities are written into the constitution.
That means that people are FREE to engage in any form of commerce or relations as they see fit.
Do you not see that explicitly supports ANY contract someone enters into?
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The government is only there to protect the rights of ALL individuals.
If you choose to work for peanuts and you make this choice of your own free will what is it you want the government to do about it? What is your point and how is libertarianism wrong in this regard?
So you don't see a problem w/ an employer hiring someone to work in a dangerous mine that they haven't spent any money on to safeguard? You don't see any problem w/ an employer hiring a child to clean out smoke stacks? This is the kind of asinine obliviousness to your philosophy that makes me think most Libertarians are jokes. Either have the balls to admit the full extent of your beliefs or grow up.
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Now this part of your post makes no sense. How do you go from two consenting parties making a private agreement to "whatever you can get someone to agree to do"?
You are implying that somebody is gonna get the shaft if the government isn't there to hash out an agreement. That doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense b/c you surround yourself w/ shallow thinkers that don't understand things beyond poster slogans & Ron Paul swag. You want an example of a Libertarian-supported ideal. Coal towns before unions & gov't were disgustingly dangerous. People had to choose between patently unsafe work conditions or putting food on the table. For 99% of the modern world, we recognize that gov't has a role to step in and force the employers to abide by a minimum safety standard. A Libertarian would oppose that and say that if someone agrees to work in unsafe conditions, the gov't has no right to step in.
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I guess in your worldview I can "force" someone to make me hire their child for $1 per day to work in a factory for 20 hours? ...and this is because that is what libertarianism is all about?
How about paying a kid $25 to mow my lawn? Does this libertarian ideal of private exchange of money for service disgust you too?
Lol... it would be a small-minded Libertarian who thinks that COMMERCE is a uniquely Libertarian idea. Here's a tip Ron Paul-lite: Commerce isn't what separates Libertarian from other ideologies...
NOPE! Every time I think I might be a Libertarians I talk to a Libertarian and I am reassured. I am an American completely dissatisfied with my political party choices.
At least you have the strength of your convictions to stand behind the truth of your beliefs.
What common misrepresentation. Show me where in Libertarian principles it supports anyone getting in the way of someone agreeing to work in unsafe work conditions, or employing a child to clean chimneys, or anything. It doesn't.
I still don't understand your point. You make it sound like all humans are jackals just waiting for the opportunity to take advantage of one another. The real life world of labor is not like Mr. Burns on the Simpsons. Besides you are talking about slavery where people have no choice. If you don't want to work in a bad environment then don't work in a bad environment. By the way...America DOES have a court system.
Do you not see that explicitly supports ANY contract someone enters into?
So you don't see a problem w/ an employer hiring someone to work in a dangerous mine that they haven't spent any money on to safeguard? You don't see any problem w/ an employer hiring a child to clean out smoke stacks? This is the kind of asinine obliviousness to your philosophy that makes me think most Libertarians are jokes. Either have the balls to admit the full extent of your beliefs or grow up.
I don't know where your bizarre anger is coming from. Did Ron Paul p**s in your Cheerios? Why do you think libertarianism is about forcing someone to work in a dangerous mine or forcing a kid to clean smoke stacks? What is this...19th century Dickensian London?
Of course it doesn't make sense b/c you surround yourself w/ shallow thinkers that don't understand things beyond poster slogans & Ron Paul swag. You want an example of a Libertarian-supported ideal. Coal towns before unions & gov't were disgustingly dangerous. People had to choose between patently unsafe work conditions or putting food on the table. For 99% of the modern world, we recognize that gov't has a role to step in and force the employers to abide by a minimum safety standard. A Libertarian would oppose that and say that if someone agrees to work in unsafe conditions, the gov't has no right to step in.
Again you are showing strange anger at libertarianism. I think you really want to direct your anger at the oligarchy but are too confused to see the difference between oligarchism and libertarianism.
Lol... it would be a small-minded Libertarian who thinks that COMMERCE is a uniquely Libertarian idea. Here's a tip Ron Paul-lite: Commerce isn't what separates Libertarian from other ideologies...
...and again you assume that libertarians think commerce is unique to libertarianism. I am getting the feeling that you have received 100% of your information about liberty and freedom from MSNBC.
...and again you assume that libertarians think commerce is unique to libertarianism. I am getting the feeling that you have received 100% of your information about liberty and freedom from MSNBC.
Open your mind a little and stop being so angry.
... You're the one that brought up a simple transaction as a defense of Libertarianism. You brought up paying a kid $25 for chores. If you had your head on right, you'd see that's not the issue at hand. Child labor laws weren't passed to protect kids from shoveling sidewalks. The more you talk, the more you fit it w/ the majority of Libertarians I've talked with -- ignorant of history, and ignorant of your own tenets.
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I still don't understand your point. You make it sound like all humans are jackals just waiting for the opportunity to take advantage of one another. The real life world of labor is not like Mr. Burns on the Simpsons. Besides you are talking about slavery where people have no choice. If you don't want to work in a bad environment then don't work in a bad environment. By the way...America DOES have a court system.
Of course you don't understand my point b/c you don't even understand the core principles of your own "beliefs." I shouldn't have to break this down to this level for you, but I will. First, I'm not saying the Libertarianism mandates or leads to all employers treating their employees poorly. I'm saying Libertarianism is okay w/ that scenario, should it come up. What's so hard to understand about that?
In other words, not every factory is a sweatshop. But if your factory is a sweatshop, Libertarians are okay with that.
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I don't know where your bizarre anger is coming from. Did Ron Paul p**s in your Cheerios? Why do you think libertarianism is about forcing someone to work in a dangerous mine or forcing a kid to clean smoke stacks? What is this...19th century Dickensian London?
Who said anything about forcing anyone to do anything? The fact that you can't seem to grasp the concept of "contract" tells me all that I need to know about how well you understand Libertarianism.
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Again you are showing strange anger at libertarianism. I think you really want to direct your anger at the oligarchy but are too confused to see the difference between oligarchism and libertarianism.
Are you now denying that a Libertarian would support whatever agreement the employer of the unsafe mine and the employee come to about working in those conditions?
... You're the one that brought up a simple transaction as a defense of Libertarianism. You brought up paying a kid $25 for chores. If you had your head on right, you'd see that's not the issue at hand. Child labor laws weren't passed to protect kids from shoveling sidewalks. The more you talk, the more you fit it w/ the majority of Libertarians I've talked with -- ignorant of history, and ignorant of your own tenets.
Of course you don't understand my point b/c you don't even understand the core principles of your own "beliefs." I shouldn't have to break this down to this level for you, but I will. First, I'm not saying the Libertarianism mandates or leads to all employers treating their employees poorly. I'm saying Libertarianism is okay w/ that scenario, should it come up. What's so hard to understand about that?
In other words, not every factory is a sweatshop. But if your factory is a sweatshop, Libertarians are okay with that.
Who said anything about forcing anyone to do anything? The fact that you can't seem to grasp the concept of "contract" tells me all that I need to know about how well you understand Libertarianism.
Are you now denying that a Libertarian would support whatever agreement the employer of the unsafe mine and the employee come to about working in those conditions?
You really have a bizarre notion of liberty and libertarianism.
Nowhere does libertarianism state that workers and children are to be abused and that is OK. Where are getting this stuff????
Are you okay w/ sweatshops? B/c if you're a Libertarian, you are.
Of course it's the issue at hand. People should be free to pursue whatever employment opportunities available to them. What is a 'sweatshop'? That's a word that means different things to different people. Explain what you mean by that.
You really have a bizarre notion of liberty and libertarianism.
Nowhere does libertarianism state that workers and children are to be abused and that is OK. Where are getting this stuff????
Lol... okay. So as a Libertarian, what's your solution for this scenario.
I live in a mining town where the only available work is in the local coal mines. The owner of the mine knows that there are glaring safety issues w/ the mine, but doesn't want to spend the money to fix it. He tells me this upfront and I understand that the mine is lacking basic safety precautions, but the choice is either go hungry or go to work, so I accept the job.
So,as a Libertarian, what is your opinion of this arrangement?
Of course it's the issue at hand. People should be free to pursue whatever employment opportunities available to them. What is a 'sweatshop'? That's a word that means different things to different people. Explain what you mean by that.
Like I said above, child labor laws were not passed to protect children from bike routes. Trying to bring jobs like that into this completely misses the point of the Libertarians vs child labor laws discussions, and is a poor attempt at creating a strawman.
But to help the discussion, sweatshop doesn't need to be defined b/c any & every definition of a "sweatshop" is okay by Libertarian standards. So imagine as bad a sweatshop as you want, and Libertarians are okay w/ it as long the people working there agreed to work there.
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