U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-28-2012, 04:48 PM
Status: "\_(ツ)_/" (set 11 days ago)
 
11,378 posts, read 5,958,274 times
Reputation: 3596

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
Nobody is suggesting free healthcare. What the World Health Organization is advocating, and what most developed nations already have in place is universal healthcare.
Well the business model for utilities and for education do not at all match up to the concept of UHC. Utilities and education are paid for at the time of use by the individual end user, and in every case they know the exact price they are being charged for said services.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-28-2012, 04:48 PM
 
18,262 posts, read 10,360,166 times
Reputation: 13314
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Perfect analogy, the vast majority of the population receives neither of those services for "free" now do they?
Nope; but then neither are they completely open to the free market as both those are government regulated and subisdized to a great degree.

Where was it proposed that Universal Health care should be free or indeed is free?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 04:52 PM
 
32,403 posts, read 16,598,875 times
Reputation: 17433
Quote:
Originally Posted by RebelYell14 View Post
No medical patents? That has been proven to backfire.

Ever heard of the Chamberlens? Inventors of the birth forceps, and because they couldn't patent their technology, they opted to keep it a secret instead. So for about a century, the wives of the gentry, the royalty, the rich and the well-connected in England could hope to survive a breech birth and perhaps even have a live child after the ordeal.

The poor? They had no hope of meeting the price requested by a Chamberlen and croaked miserably by the hundreds. For a century.

Perhaps intellectual property rights to medical inventions might not be such a bad idea?

Last edited by Dane_in_LA; 11-28-2012 at 05:02 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 04:59 PM
 
2,944 posts, read 3,003,588 times
Reputation: 1109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago View Post
You do know the point of insurance dont' you?

You pull your money with a bunch of people to minimize your individual risk.

How can health insurance companies be bad in that? What about the person with a brain tumor. Without insurance, you would NEVER have the money.
Do you know what is insurance? Insurance cover something uncertain. Car insurance cover accident. They do not cover oil change. Why? because it is 100% that you will need oil change.

Health insurance is not insurance, because it cover thing that happy 100% of the time. A cold is an example. People who has no skin in the game, like medicaid receiptant, they will go to the doctor 20 times to see a cold. Since it cost them nothing, and they get free prescription, which they can sell for money.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 05:02 PM
 
10,357 posts, read 7,972,760 times
Reputation: 4547
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Well the business model for utilities and for education do not at all match up to the concept of UHC. Utilities and education are paid for at the time of use by the individual end user, and in every case they know the exact price they are being charged for said services.
That's why we have insurance. None of us know when disaster will strike and you will be in need of millions of dollars of medical treatment. You can't budget for something like that like you can for a utility bill.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 05:04 PM
 
2,944 posts, read 3,003,588 times
Reputation: 1109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
No medical patents? That has been proven to backfire.

Ever heard of the Chamberlens? Inventors of the birth forceps, and because they couldn't patent their technology, they had to keep it a secret instead. So for about a century, the wives of the gentry, the royalty, the rich and the well-connected in England could hope to survive a breech birth and perhaps even have a live child after the ordeal.

The poor? They had no hope of meeting the price requested by a Chamberlen and croaked miserably by the hundreds. For a century.

Perhaps intellectual property rights to medical inventions might not be such a bad idea?
Misery happened. There is no way to prevent this. Not even a mega ultra big government.

Technology is what it is. When it was invented, very little people could access it.

I can use mobile for your example. The Motorola DynaTAC 8000X AKA "the brick" was sold for 4k in 1983 dollar. How "greedy" inventor charge so much and only the very rich can afford it. If they can give the brick to every one, then the "poor" wouldn't die on the street without a phone to call for help.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 05:11 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,981 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Yep, but what does this Libertarian, scrooge, darwinist, evil person know about charity, huh?

Car Donation | 1-800 Charity Cars
Actually, that link is mostly about donating cars to charity, which they then sell for scrap. We recently donated a car to Habitat for Humanity that was totally not running. Here is your website's disclaimer:

"Although we appreciate all vehicle donations regardless of condition, the vast majority of donated vehicles do not qualify to be “program cars” (provided to a family). Charity Cars bases its decisions on many factors including, but not limited to: year, make, model, mileage, condition, location, recipient, repair and funding limitations. Since placing a vehicle with a client is the exception rather than the rule, donors should assume that their vehicle will be sold at auction or for salvage with the proceeds returning to our charity. We will notify the donor in writing if their vehicle may qualify as a “program car” and may be provided to a disadvantaged person or qualified entity."

And wow, what a charity! One star out of 4 on Charity Navigator.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/inde...ary&orgid=7721

Of course, the picture in their ad shows a family holding up a "thank you" sign in front of a late model car!

In any event, it's still off topic.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 11-28-2012 at 05:20 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 05:37 PM
 
32,403 posts, read 16,598,875 times
Reputation: 17433
Quote:
Originally Posted by cw30000 View Post
Misery happened. There is no way to prevent this. Not even a mega ultra big government.

Technology is what it is. When it was invented, very little people could access it.
Forceps were very far from high tech, they could have been made for a pittance even in the 18th century, and the inventors absolutely knew it. Which is why they went to extreme lengths to keep them under wraps - blindfolding the patient etc. With no government to back the, enforcing their intellectual property rights though patents or licensing, they stood to lose their livelihood if anyone outside their very small trusted circle gained access to the forceps.

They acted exactly as rational participants in a free market could be expected to.

Quote:
I can use mobile for your example. The Motorola DynaTAC 8000X AKA "the brick" was sold for 4k in 1983 dollar. How "greedy" inventor charge so much and only the very rich can afford it. If they can give the brick to every one, then the "poor" wouldn't die on the street without a phone to call for help.
The two scenarios are nothing alike. That cell phone was cutting-edge technology at its time - knock-offs couldn't be produced by anyone competent getting their hands on one. Even so, cell phone technology is of course massively covered by patents and IP legislation, the very thing wosshisname's link argue should be abolished. Oh, and Motorola tried like hell to lower prices and get their technology in the hands of everyone - something they could do because, among other things, they had government courts to keep competitors from downright copying their tech for the lifetime of the patent. Compare and contrast with the Chamberlens, who instead kept their life-saving technology secret - because that was their way to maximize profits.

Short version: Forceps weren't hard to make, and couldn't be patented. Cell phones are hard to make, and were protected by patents.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 05:41 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
2,080 posts, read 1,442,299 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Then read a book.


Oh... I didn't realize you weren't American. Because that's not true in this country.
I read a ton of books...have several containers full of books matter of fact.I forgot you think because you have a history degree you know what goes on behind the curtain of the elite...yeah...be arrogant elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Are you serious? Charities that give cars to people? Anyway, this analogy doesn't work, so get back on the topic of health care.
Yes charities do give cars to people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2012, 06:34 PM
 
Location: in my imagination
11,392 posts, read 18,598,208 times
Reputation: 7932
I just had the annual company insurance meeting today, next year as usual the pricing went up and so did the deductable. I don't like my insurance being tied to my employment, yet with a history of skin cancer I cannot get insurance else where, I have tried and was told DENIED, DENIED DENIED. In fact I am having a basal cell removed tomorrow, cost is $650 left on my deductable ( deductable starts at $1500), $700 for 20% of the rest of the bill ( so my part is $1300) my insurance picking up %80. There is no debating, they tell you what it is and how can you haggle?, it is essential to have the procedure. It is not like getting a auto repair where you have a choice to decline getting it done.

If my monthly health insurance payment is $300 , my company is probably paying $500 in their part. So the real monthly premium through Aetna is around $800. If you go COBRA your monthly payment becomes that, $800, many people can't afford such a increase.

Insurance gives doctors a table of pricing, that's why some doctors don't like being part of a insurance plan, the doctor or dentist might want to charge $1000 for a extraction or service, the insurance will dictate they can only charge say $500. But, when a person chooses a primary doctor under a plan even if you never go the insurance will pay that doctor a certain payment, usually monthly so I understand.

I haven't made my mind up just what is the best way to fix things, I generally believe government shouldn't interfere but in the case of healthcare I think without some over sight some would never get the care they need.

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The last two don't mean much when you don't have life. When treatment or a cure is readily available yet you deny a person based on lack of being able to pay you are controlling their life. I thought the principles of America was founded around others not being allowed to control you? When resources are limited that is different, not enough treatment to around is supply and demand, but when treatment for say leukemia is readily available morally a rich person kid is no more important than a poor person's kid. Or is importance of life based on how rich someone is? If tht is the case it is ethically wrong.

"Mr Jones.....
A~ yes treatment is available, great progress has been made to a cure.
B~ we can save you
C~ but we won't save you unless you pay us $XXXX

A couple years ago I posted my bill from the hospital for my one day stay appendix removal. Hospital bill was $30,000, they settled with Aetna for $10,000. How is it that a bottle of Advil costs $7 at a store but one Advil pill costs $30 in a hospital?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top