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Old 11-29-2012, 07:41 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,419,463 times
Reputation: 5453

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mon View Post
How about you take a $10.00/hr job and try to make payments on $500,000 in cancer treatments then get back to us on that one.

Healthcare (otherwise known as activities that keep you alive) is not like any other good that can be traded on an open market like a a car, or widget. There is no upper limit on what people with the means to do so will pay to keep them selves healthy and alive. Likewise no person without the means is going to decline live-saving treatment because they can't afford it.
And what percentage of hospital cases fall into this category? Don't use the one-off minority cases as a rule to make a decision for what should happen to the entire nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvsteve View Post
There are a lot of people who will never be able to pay their hospital bills, even if they work the rest of their lives and you take their entire estates on their death. A lot of people. What do we do about this bad debt?

The answer is that doctors get stiffed and they pass the costs on to everyone else in the form of higher healthcare costs. And thus further people can't pay their bills, and the cycle gets worse and worse.

...I just told you what to do about the bad debt. People should give up their cable and internet, sell their car and ride a bike to work, cut expenses until they can pay their bills. How is that hard to understand?
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:43 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,201,775 times
Reputation: 14558
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
And what percentage of hospital cases fall into this category? Don't use the one-off minority cases as a rule to make a decision for what should happen to the entire nation.
That's missing the point, I think. Just a handful of these $500k indigent patients can have a huge impact on a hospital's finances, and affect treatment costs for everyone.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:47 AM
 
4,414 posts, read 3,354,577 times
Reputation: 2321
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
And what percentage of hospital cases fall into this category? Don't use the one-off minority cases as a rule to make a decision for what should happen to the entire nation.
Medical bills are a contributing factor in 62% of personal bankruptcies. Find me a modern nation that allows people to go broke because of medical bills.




Quote:
...I just told you what to do about the bad debt. People should give up their cable and internet, sell their car and ride a bike to work, cut expenses until they can pay their bills. How is that hard to understand?
Yes, getting rid of cable is sure to take care of hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical expenses. I have a feeling that you are either: A)Very young; B)An individual that has either never gone without good medical insurance, or; C) has had the good fortune of never being sick.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Greer
1,611 posts, read 2,027,362 times
Reputation: 1131
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
...I just told you what to do about the bad debt. People should give up their cable and internet, sell their car and ride a bike to work, cut expenses until they can pay their bills. How is that hard to understand?
Cancelling cable will not allow a $15/hour worker to pay for six-figure hospital bill. Don't be ridiculous.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:56 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,419,463 times
Reputation: 5453
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
That's missing the point, I think. Just a handful of these $500k indigent patients can have a huge impact on a hospital's finances, and affect treatment costs for everyone.
I think you are missing the point.

As seen in the article below, out of 199 hospital systems studied, the average yearly revenue was $1.98 billion. Given 1% of sales as bad debt expense is a very acceptable figure in most industries, that leaves each hospital system with $19.8 million in a bad debt expense to write off every year, which is a very reasonable number. Tell me, do you have any actual numbers (you know, math?) to back up what you are saying?

numbers from this article

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvsteve View Post
Cancelling cable will not allow a $15/hour worker to pay for a $500,000 hospital bill. Don't be ridiculous.
Cutting expenses will allow the average worker to minimize the debt should they need to go through bankruptcy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mon View Post
Medical bills are a contributing factor in 62% of personal bankruptcies. Find me a modern nation that allows people to go broke because of medical bills.
Why is bankruptcy a bad thing?

Find me a modern nation whose government is not drowning in debt due to propping up citizens with no plan to repay the money.

Quote:
Yes, getting rid of cable is sure to take care of hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical expenses. I have a feeling that you are either: A)Very young; B)An individual that has either never gone without good medical insurance, or; C) has had the good fortune of never being sick.
And a person's ability to pay for medical care is their responsibility, not the governments.

And you are right, I have never gone without good medical care. I am 27 years old, I have worked 85 hours/week on a job where the contract stated that I should work 40 hours/week. I did that for five years without complaining and because of that earned a very lucrative salary, so no, I don't have much empathy for someone who doesn't put in the effort to actually take care of themselves financially. Having enough money to pay for emergencies is the responsibility of the individual, not the government.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:03 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,201,775 times
Reputation: 14558
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
I think you are missing the point.

As seen in the article below, out of 199 hospital systems studied, the average yearly revenue was $1.98 billion. Given 1% of sales as bad debt expense is a very acceptable figure in most industries, that leaves each hospital system with $19.8 million in a bad debt expense to write off every year, which is a very reasonable number.
Here's a study from my state -- "community benefit as total expense"
14% at Duke
18% at Carolinas Health System
19% at ENC University Health Systems

http://www.nphhi.org/Different-Forma...HO-slides.aspx
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:06 AM
 
3,421 posts, read 2,590,576 times
Reputation: 1238
Libertarians will never accept any argument you can give them. They only see the world through one lens, free market society. Its their answer to everything. If you can't afford it, somehow a charity is going to help, or give up all your assets and live on the streets to pay for it. The reality is, healthcare is one of those markets that eventually we are all going to need. When you are in a business that sells a product that everybody needs, you got the customer by the balls. That's not a free market society, that just called being screwed.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:11 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,419,463 times
Reputation: 5453
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
Here's a study from my state -- "community benefit as total expense"
14% at Duke
18% at Carolinas Health System
19% at ENC University Health Systems

http://www.nphhi.org/Different-Forma...HO-slides.aspx
You still don't seem to get it.

Private charitable work is very essential the a free market health care system. Additionally, a true free market system would in fact significantly lower costs due to the increase in options open to people. That study is somewhat meaningless when thought about in reference to an actual free market system.

I as a human being have a responsibility to help people who are less than fortunate, our government should not have that responsibility. There is a very big difference between a social and legal obligation. Please stop trying to legislate moral behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55 View Post
Libertarians will never accept any argument you can give them. They only see the world through one lens, free market society. Its their answer to everything. If you can't afford it, somehow a charity is going to help, or give up all your assets and live on the streets to pay for it. The reality is, healthcare is one of those markets that eventually we are all going to need. When you are in a business that sells a product that everybody needs, you got the customer by the balls. That's not a free market society, that just called being screwed.
Right, because another company cannot open up with lower prices. Good god the stupidity. Markets are kept in check because of the other person's greed. You charge $1,000 for a CAT scan, I open a clinic next door and charge $700 for the same test. How is that such a hard concept for people to understand?
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:15 AM
 
3,421 posts, read 2,590,576 times
Reputation: 1238
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
You still don't seem to get it.

Private charitable work is very essential the a free market health care system. Additionally, a true free market system would in fact significantly lower costs due to the increase in options open to people. That study is somewhat meaningless when thought about in reference to an actual free market system.

I as a human being have a responsibility to help people who are less than fortunate, our government should not have that responsibility. There is a very big difference between a social and legal obligation. Please stop trying to legislate moral behavior.
but health insurance is not really a free market society because everybody needs its. on top of that, just because you have different options, its doesn't mean those other options are great. on top of that, insurance companies wouldn't have any reason to take on a sick client, and why do libertarians assume a private charity will take care of everyone that can't afford it?
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Camberville
12,004 posts, read 16,756,182 times
Reputation: 19709
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post

And you are right, I have never gone without good medical care. I am 27 years old, I have worked 85 hours/week on a job where the contract stated that I should work 40 hours/week. I did that for five years without complaining and because of that earned a very lucrative salary, so no, I don't have much empathy for someone who doesn't put in the effort to actually take care of themselves financially. Having enough money to pay for emergencies is the responsibility of the individual, not the government.
And when I was 23 years old, I was on my laptop for 6 hours every other Friday in a chemo infusion center being pumped full of poisons while working my tush off having already worked a 60 hour week. Then, the next week, I'd be back in my office on Monday in excruciating pain because of the tumors dying in my bones and around my organs and need my bosses to guard the office bathroom door while I dry heaved from the chemo.

And I did that to keep my health insurance and to have some money flow, and it did NOTHING to make the debt manageable.

85 hours a week if you're healthy? That's no big deal. I pulled that the week after chemo for a weekend event that required constant contact with people, running around, setting up, etc. And I'm certain I made significantly less money than you did in doing it.

How should a 23 year old fresh out of college be prepared for an emergency like that? Had I been diagnosed 4 months earlier, I would have been unemployed, uninsured because of preexisting conditions, and on the hook for over $250,000 just for treatment alone, to say nothing of the tens of thousands of dollars in follow-up a year. And I'm far from a rare case. For me, it was cancer. For my best friend from college, it was a rare reaction to an antibiotic that caused severe nerve damage that pulled him out of med school. For one of my college roommates, it was such severe Chrone's disease that part of his intestines were removed. For one of my high school friends, it was a car accident. Now that I'm fairly prominent in the young adult cancer community, it's hard to ignore when the vast majority of people are seriously struggling to even get access to their follow up appointments, much less pay their debts from chemo. I know of a 25 year old who is HOMELESS in New York City due to cancer bills and no family to help. HOMELESS because of the bills. Can you grasp that?

Not everyone has time to prepare. Others, like my parents, do all that they can to prepare, but find that it's not enough. My dad is dealing with complications from diabetes and early-onset Alzheimers right now in what should have been the height of his career at 55. Their savings are almost gone and my dad will never work again. Cut out cable? Try cutting out medications. That's a much more realistic picture of what it means to be sick and poor in the US.
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