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Old 10-14-2007, 11:44 AM
 
1,408 posts, read 4,861,112 times
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"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
(Attributed to Franklin; actual author unknown; message still true!)
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:52 AM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,187,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
Under Article I, Section 8, Clause 1, which is the power for Congress to levy taxes for that purpose, not a blank check to do whatever Congress wants for "the general welfare". The US Constitution was never intended to be a blanket authority for Congress to do whatever it pleases for "the general welfare", it was intended to place limitations on the powers of Congress.
I have to chuckle when I think of Clinton trying to define (or some might say, rationalize) the word "is".

I happen to think it is primarily by this instrument that broad scope of what actually constitutes, "general welfare" of the nation, that this dependency is derived. The general welfare of the state is not the same today as it was when we were founded as a nation. I would not be opposed to having a better definition of this as you stated, one of the main purposes of the Constitution was to limit the powers of the government, not expand them.

When I mentioned the reference to Paul, it was intended to be in the context of peoples objections primarily being a retraction of government. This leading me to question why do people seem to fear the notion of having to be more personally responsible, accountable, and maybe even self reliant instead of what I see is a growing dependence and reliance on government to legislate these things for us, there by removing much of the need to think and only to obey.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,935 posts, read 4,998,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LancasterNative View Post
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
(Attributed to Franklin; actual author unknown; message still true!)
PATRIOT Act

Protect America Act

America #1 Act

Big Brother Will Save You Act

"We're Better Off With a Dictator Anyway Act" ?????

Maybe it's only a matter of time.

Some might find my somewhat "social democratic" views and those of other similarly-thinking people (when it comes to economic stuff) to be averse to the libertarian definition of freedom... however, my personal opinion is that the unfettered free market only provides maximum "freedom" to those who benefit most from it. Try asking someone who has to pick and choose between paying for food, rent, health insurance, utilities, transportation how "free" they are.
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,169 posts, read 24,320,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
PATRIOT Act

Protect America Act

America #1 Act

Big Brother Will Save You Act

"We're Better Off With a Dictator Anyway Act" ?????

Maybe it's only a matter of time.

Some might find my somewhat "social democratic" views and those of other similarly-thinking people (when it comes to economic stuff) to be averse to the libertarian definition of freedom... however, my personal opinion is that the unfettered free market only provides maximum "freedom" to those who benefit most from it. Try asking someone who has to pick and choose between paying for food, rent, health insurance, utilities, transportation how "free" they are.
First, though, we would like to ask you how your life has been adversely affected by the Patriot Act. Feel free to use hyperbole.
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,208,139 times
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As I was stating in my earlier message...
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:14 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,464,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Party affiliations aside, there seems (and I very well may be wrong as I often am) that there is a growing fear of personal responsibility, accountability, and over all, being taken care of. I don't know why I find this disturbing, but I do.
Just as there used to be a fear of tax-and-spend-liberals? I don't even know if it's propitious to use the words personal responsibility and accountability anymore. If you pick them up and turn them over, it says Made in Karl Rove's Office on the bottom.

There are plenty of things that individuals can't do effectively and that markets can't do efficiently. Some of these things are nevertheless good, and there is no reason on earth for a government not to do them if it can. Government was one of the first things ever invented by human beings. There is a reason for that, and it isn't that we as a species are somehow lacking in anything but a tolerance for problems that can be easily resolved by collective action...
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,169 posts, read 24,320,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Just as there used to be a fear of tax-and-spend-liberals? I don't even know if it's propitious to use the words personal responsibility and accountability anymore. If you pick them up and turn them over, it says Made in Karl Rove's Office on the bottom.

There are plenty of things that individuals can't do effectively and that markets can't do efficiently. Some of these things are nevertheless good, and there is no reason on earth for a government not to do them if it can. Government was one of the first things ever invented by human beings. There is a reason for that, and it isn't that we as a species are somehow lacking in anything but a tolerance for problems that can be easily resolved by collective action...
<Shrug>. Turn THAT over and it says Made in Josef Stalin's Office on the bottom.
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:22 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,464,947 times
Reputation: 4013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
The US Constitution was never intended to be a blanket authority for Congress to do whatever it pleases for "the general welfare", it was intended to place limitations on the powers of Congress.
The Constitution was created to establish that the Congress and the Government generally had any powers to begin with. Powers, both specific and general, are granted by the Constitution, and limitations upon those powers, both specific and general, are imposed. This is very much a two-way street with the dominant flow being uptown...
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,935 posts, read 4,998,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
First, though, we would like to ask you how your life has been adversely affected by the Patriot Act. Feel free to use hyperbole.
My own particular life hasn't... but then again, I'm not out saying things or advocating things that the executive branch might not want to hear or have done... I'm not in another country speaking out against our government's policies, or getting mistaken for insurgents or terrorists with whom I have no relation... maybe it's that I don't think my own, personal liberty is any more important than anyone elses?
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,169 posts, read 24,320,493 times
Reputation: 15291
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
My own particular life hasn't... but then again, I'm not out saying things or advocating things that the executive branch might not want to hear or have done... I'm not in another country speaking out against our government's policies, or getting mistaken for insurgents or terrorists with whom I have no relation... maybe it's that I don't think my own, personal liberty is any more important than anyone elses?
You are saying what you what when you want wherever you want -- and most of it is highly critical of the current administration.

You feel no fear in doing so, nor should you.

In fact, it seems that you have no actual basis for your opinions about the Patriot Act, aside from what others tell you.

In other words: you're talking out of your ashtray!
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