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Old 10-14-2007, 10:18 AM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,806,163 times
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Are Americans now so dependent upon their system of government in order to function that they are afraid of the effort and self-accountability required for true freedom and liberty? Folks may scoff at such a notion but upon closer examination, I have to wonder.

I most noticed this from the arguments opposing the Ron Paul Presidential candidacy, as his basic platform is a return to the essence of what government was intended to be as opposed to the behemoth it has become. It however goes well beyond this one example and can been seen throughout various threads on this very forum as well as others areas of discussion.

When you speak of cutting spending or reducing the size of government, you will hear from the left’s concerns of social related issues of health care, programs for those less able to care for themselves, etc… When you again say this, you will hear from the right who will often state the importance of maintaining a large military apparatus and that cutting it will lead to invasion by, who knows. In the end and for very different reasons, we have both main schools of thought asking for the umbrella of government to protect them, to nurture them, care for them, and more and more to think for them.

Now while we certainly can’t live in an anarchist system as people are just not capable of complete autonomy here or anywhere on the globe. However, in an enlightened society, there is some obligation of charity to those less fortunate and there is likely a balance that can be achieved. Yet today, more and more people wish that their government not only managed those things outlined in Article 1, section 8 of the US Constitution, but also that the government legislate morality, responsibility, choice, and manner of thinking.

Is this due to laziness or merely years of growing dependence upon a system that has so permeated our manner of perspective that to do with less is like a child having to part with their security blanket?
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:29 AM
 
2,257 posts, read 3,547,617 times
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We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:31 AM
 
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paul=perot

good luck with that
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:38 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 2,841,972 times
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"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all."

G.K. Chesterton
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:43 AM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,806,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan61 View Post
paul=perot

good luck with that
This isn't about Ron Paul, please examine the theme

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorless View Post
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all."

G.K. Chesterton
Great one Anchorless, I don't recall ever hearing that one and this surprises me.

Party affiliations aside, there seems (and I very well may be wrong as I often am) that there is a growing fear of personal responsibility, accountability, and over all, being taken care of. I don't know why I find this disturbing, but I do.

If you want government to intervene domestically, you're a liberal. If you want government to intervene overseas, you're a conservative. If you want government to intervene everywhere, you're a moderate. If you don't want government to intervene anywhere, you're an extremist. --Joseph Sobran, Editor of the National Review at one time (1995)

Last edited by TnHilltopper; 10-14-2007 at 10:45 AM.. Reason: added quote
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
13,797 posts, read 24,045,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan61 View Post
paul=perot

good luck with that
Actually, I think this thread is about that.

If you have a specific item you would like to reference, then I could see the point. Within the context of the OP though, it looks like another angle at a Ron Paul advertisement.

Now if you want to discuss a specific entitlement, and the implications of it's severe reduction or elimination, then I think you have a discussion topic.

IMHO, this is too broad and theoretical, but fits the observation made by bryan61.
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:44 AM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,806,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
Actually, I think this thread is about that.

If you have a specific item you would like to reference, then I could see the point. Within the context of the OP though, it looks like another angle at a Ron Paul advertisement.

Now if you want to discuss a specific entitlement, and the implications of it's severe reduction or elimination, then I think you have a discussion topic.

IMHO, this is too broad and theoretical, but fits the observation made by bryan61.
I see, so we have to be specific now or it isn't a "discussion topic" as you state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Are Americans now so dependent upon their system of government in order to function that they are afraid of the effort and self-accountability required for true freedom and liberty? Folks may scoff at such a notion but upon closer examination, I have to wonder.

I most noticed this from the arguments opposing the Ron Paul Presidential candidacy, as his basic platform is a return to the essence of what government was intended to be as opposed to the behemoth it has become. It however goes well beyond this one example and can been seen throughout various threads on this very forum as well as others areas of discussion.

When you speak of cutting spending or reducing the size of government, you will hear from the left’s concerns of social related issues of health care, programs for those less able to care for themselves, etc… When you again say this, you will hear from the right who will often state the importance of maintaining a large military apparatus and that cutting it will lead to invasion by, who knows. In the end and for very different reasons, we have both main schools of thought asking for the umbrella of government to protect them, to nurture them, care for them, and more and more to think for them.

Now while we certainly can’t live in an anarchist system as people are just not capable of complete autonomy here or anywhere on the globe. However, in an enlightened society, there is some obligation of charity to those less fortunate and there is likely a balance that can be achieved. Yet today, more and more people wish that their government not only managed those things outlined in Article 1, section 8 of the US Constitution, but also that the government legislate morality, responsibility, choice, and manner of thinking.

Is this due to laziness or merely years of growing dependence upon a system that has so permeated our manner of perspective that to do with less is like a child having to part with their security blanket?
The premise is dependence upon the government by the people, which starts the discussion where posters either say that no it is not true or yes that it is true and so give their reasons. Not my fault that so many fixate on a specific detail of the premise and use that as the basis of judgment.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
13,797 posts, read 24,045,729 times
Reputation: 6270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Are Americans now so dependent upon their system of government in order to function that they are afraid of the effort and self-accountability required for true freedom and liberty? Folks may scoff at such a notion but upon closer examination, I have to wonder.

I most noticed this from the arguments opposing the Ron Paul Presidential candidacy, as his basic platform is a return to the essence of what government was intended to be as opposed to the behemoth it has become.

Is this due to laziness or merely years of growing dependence upon a system that has so permeated our manner of perspective that to do with less is like a child having to part with their security blanket?
As I stated above, your starting point appears too broad to me to be a posting board discussion topic.

But if you insist...no, I don't think we are lazy nor dependent. I'm sure you could find folks who would think we are lazy/dependent for specific issues, but would not think so for others. Of course, that would just get into a typical back and forth thread with little point.

So, what would you propose we eliminate? Try to pick stuff impacting both sides of the aisle here.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,825 posts, read 20,507,320 times
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Default Personal Responsibility vs. Government Dependence

I completely agree with TnHilltopper's basic premise. We have become a nation dependent on government to solve all our ills. Government has become the convenient solution to avoiding personal responsibility.

Not long ago it used to be the individual's responsibility to provide their own medical insurance for their families. Now it has become a "right" that government is expected to provide for everyone. When people build homes in flood plains and don't provide for their own insurance, it is now expected, even demanded, that government must bail them out in the event of a flood.

As to "the general welfare" in the US Constitution that phrase can be found in only two locations: 1) The preamble, which is not a constitutional power but merely a summary of what is to follow; and 2) Under Article I, Section 8, Clause 1, which is the power for Congress to levy taxes for that purpose, not a blank check to do whatever Congress wants for "the general welfare". The US Constitution was never intended to be a blanket authority for Congress to do whatever it pleases for "the general welfare", it was intended to place limitations on the powers of Congress.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:41 PM
 
1,408 posts, read 4,485,534 times
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FDR's "New Deal" and LBJ's "Great Society" are both Declarations of Dependence on Government.

Both were completely out of character for America: abdicating personal responsibility in favor of fealty to an earthly overlord.
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