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View Poll Results: Should we build the HSR network
Yes 192 60.57%
No 125 39.43%
Voters: 317. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-13-2015, 01:38 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,300 posts, read 7,939,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
It is not just HSR, the Chinese are building mega-dams, bridges, roads, power grids, you name it.

Meanwhile what are we doing?
We already built all of that.

When did the standard of what we should or shouldn't do become what China is doing?

 
Old 01-13-2015, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 29,451,107 times
Reputation: 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
really now...

I love trains...3rd generation railroader...

but HSR wont work , especially in the northeast cooridor....NO ROOM to even lay the tracks

do you even understand all the logistics that go into planning a railroad???

do you even understand EPA, FRA rules and regulations??

bet you don't...you would rather ''pull on the heart strings'' than to see reality

1. HSR is designed to be HIGH SPEED LONG DISTANCE....zero stops to slow down the train

2. the roadbed requirements, tie requirements , weight of rail (all welded rail) requirement, ballast requirement, drainage requirement, power(most likely electrical) requirements, epa (environmental requirements, warnings at crossing requirements(ie FRA regulations on horns etc)

3. do you even realize the stopping distance of a NORMAL train doing 50mph......a FULL MILE....trains don't stop on a dime....(RESEARCH operation lifesaver....ie crossing accidents)

4. do you understand the requirements for checking the rail on a regular basis (ie MOW (maintenance of way))?

5 for the northeast corridor (ie metronorth)even with running a HSR '''side by side''' with the normal track, where are you going to build a new station, or new line into an existing station....???

6..how many people are you going to UNHOUSE, (ie eminent domain ) to run this new line??



but you keep up the big government liberal mantra
They already run express trains in the northeast that barely counts as high speed rail now, so putting faster high speed rail in the northeast isn't a far fetched idea.

Heck, if you want it to be "small government" then just privatize it once it is built.
 
Old 01-13-2015, 02:28 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,800 posts, read 17,670,737 times
Reputation: 9029
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
That is true, Europe and Japan are much more advanced when it comes to infrastructure than we are. America is basically the slow, fat kid at the park when it comes to infrastructure....and a lot of things really. It is sad how far Americans have let us fall.
You don't think the set up of their cities have anything to do with it? more dense, compact, the cities themselves are closer to each other... cities themselves are more "central" as in the revolve around the city center.... where spread out sprawled out American cities don't revolve around the city center as much, a lot of business and stuff out in the suburbs....

basically i'd bet there is more of a demand for HSR between Lyon - Paris than Minneapolis - Chicago so it makes sense Europe and Japan have great HSR systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
China takes the git 'er done approach.

When is the last time we built any big infrastructure? They are crushing us on education, manufacturing and infrastructure know how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
It is not just HSR, the Chinese are building mega-dams, bridges, roads, power grids, you name it.

Meanwhile what are we doing?
Developing countries tend to build more than developed countries.
 
Old 01-13-2015, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 29,451,107 times
Reputation: 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
You don't think the set up of their cities have anything to do with it? more dense, compact, the cities themselves are closer to each other... cities themselves are more "central" as in the revolve around the city center.... where spread out sprawled out American cities don't revolve around the city center as much, a lot of business and stuff out in the suburbs....

basically i'd bet there is more of a demand for HSR between Lyon - Paris than Minneapolis - Chicago so it makes sense Europe and Japan have great HSR systems.





Developing countries tend to build more than developed countries.
True, we have built against ourselves for so long that it would take generations go reverse. Though currently there are places that see enough travel between the two to justify this. Not sure how many people commute between Minneapolis to Chicago, we would have to look at the number of flights that are doing that destination route and the number of people who are driving it to get a decent idea.

I know in the Northwest there is enough people who commute between Seattle and Portland to justify it.
 
Old 01-13-2015, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
12,327 posts, read 7,471,257 times
Reputation: 15904
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
In the Northeast there are enough of a demand to just connect the major cities with HSR because there is already local rail and express rail connecting much of CT and NJ to major cities. Adding HSR would just be an added bonus for that region.
Intermediate, rather than end-point cities are what sustains any rail network,; Express, end-to-end service will have to wait until the demand materializes (possible as speeds and reliability increase), but it will take a while.

And unfortunately for the dreamers, what currently serves as "HSR" in the Northeast is about as good as its going to get for quite a while. With the exception of the new catenary between New Haven and Boston, the electrical system is in need of a complete rebuild, and there is very little possibility of new right-of-way; too expensive to acquire.
Quote:

As for Amtrak not working, that has a lot to do with their poor time record due to not having exclusive tracks and having to always yield for freight trains. Having HSR doesn't mean we have to also give up our local rail service lines that have more stops. HSR is more for connecting major hubs.
Freight-passenger conflicts are an issue only on the long-distance routes, where the number of freight trains has nearly doubled since the rail industry recovered post-1985. To some degree, these are regarded as "land cruises", and speed and reliability are not as great a factor.

Amtrak pulled all freight service off the Northeast Corridor after a serious accident in 1990, save for local pick-up and delivery, which is scheduled at night in most cases, In one instance, additional tracks on the outside of the passenger tracks were installed -- a very expensive proposition.
Quote:

I do however partly agree with you about the issue with it being public. Stations should be city/state owned. Rails should be federal owned, and the trains should be private owned. This would be a similar layout to what we have with air travel in this country.
This has been edging toward a de facto accomplishment in those regions where long-term interference was a major factor in the bankruptcy of Penn Central an other private railroads back in the 1960's. But Conrail restored the vast majority of the freight network to profitability; no need to interfere again and undo this.
Quote:

For HSR to be productive in the Northwest, we would need a Eugene, Salem, Portland, Olympia, Tacoma, Seattle, Vancouver line with the possibility of bypassing a few of those stops so that some trains can just be a Portland, Seattle, Vancouver line.
Probably the single easiest portion of the current rail passenger network to upgrade to HSR status. Amtrak already serves all the stations listed above via its Cascade Corridor, and interference with freight traffic is much less of a problem in this market.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 01-13-2015 at 04:24 PM..
 
Old 01-13-2015, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 29,451,107 times
Reputation: 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Intermediate, rather than end-point cities are what sustains any rail network,; Express, end-to-end service will have to wait until the demand materializes (possible as speeds and reliability increase), but it will take a while.

And unfortunately for the dreamers, what currently serves as "HSR" in the Northeast is about as good as its going to get for quite a while. With the exception of the new catenary between New Haven and Boston, the electrical system is in need of a complete rebuild, and there is very little possibility of new right-of-way; too expensive to acquire. Freight-passenger conflicts are an issue only on the long-distance routes, where the number of freight trains has nearly doubled since the rail industry recovered post-1985. Amtrak pulled all freight service off the Northeast Corridor after a serious accident in 1990, save for local pick-up and delivery, which is scheduled at night in most cases, In one instance, additional tracks on the outside of the passenger routes were installed -- a very expensive proposition. This has been edging toward a de facto accomplishment in those regions where long-term interference was a major factor in the bankruptcy of Penn Central an other private railroads back in the 1960's. But Conrail restored the vast majority of the freight network to profitability; no need to interfere again and undo this. Probably the single easiest portion of the current rail passenger network to upgrade to HSR status. Amtrak already serves all the stations listed above via its Cascade Corridor, and interference with freight traffic is much less of a problem in this market.
The northeast corridor already runs on separate tracks from freight, but much of the rest of the country relies on shared tracks that put passenger rail second. As for technology and speed, those two already exist in the world, we just haven't applied that technology to here.

Last edited by urbanlife78; 01-13-2015 at 05:44 PM.. Reason: bad auto correct
 
Old 01-13-2015, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
6,111 posts, read 5,066,159 times
Reputation: 2426
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Good point, many people make the argument "If Japan or Europe can have High Speed Rail so can we!"

Kind of a horrible reason if you ask me, especially considering we are nothing like those places.
That excuse is belied by the fact that China, Russia and Australia which as just as big or in the case of Russia or Australia just as empty yet the Russian Federation just built a high speed rail line from Saint Petersburg to Moscow a distance of 1200 miles and China has a nearly finished system almost as long as our Interstate Highway system. A group in Australia is raising capital to build a high speed route from Perth to Melbourne via Adelaide a nearly 1500 mile route. If we are to provide decent construction jobs to millions of Americans whose only fault is to not be needed because there is no work for them, we need such large scale infrastructure like high speed rail on the scale needed to connect the whole USA not just two short routes in the NE or between LA and San Francisco. In China viaducts orelevate rail lines carry trains moving at nearl;y 200 mph from horizon to horizon, Think of the millionso tons of concrete and steel needed and the hundreds of thousands of men and women needed to emplace it over the 2,100 miles it took to build the Beijimg to Guanzhou (Canton) route just one of many now in todays China.
 
Old 01-13-2015, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
6,111 posts, read 5,066,159 times
Reputation: 2426
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
The northeast corridor already runs on separate tracks from freight, but much of the rest of the country relies on shared tracks that put passenger rail second. As for technology and speed, those two already exist in the world, we just haven't applied that technology to here.
The Amtrak Acela trains are NOT HIGHSPEED RAIL because they run on the same electrified rail lines built over 100 years ago by the Pennsylvania Railroad from NYC's Penn Station to Union Station in Washington DC. No one in Europe, Japan or China would consider a train that runs at 70 mph or less high speed rail. Rail lines built to the needed of the 1880s can't handle a German ICE ,Chinese CHR, Japanese Shinsan or French TGV train running at the speeds they are capable . Acela only looks the part of a modern train but not its performance. To understand how far behind we are, the NY Central Empire Builder once ran at nearly 100 mph on some of the straighter sections of its track between Chicago and Cleveland using steam power and did so 120 years ago. It nearly tore the tracks out but gave Commodore Vanderbilt bragging rights for having the fastest trains in service during the height of Americas railroading.
 
Old 01-13-2015, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
2,533 posts, read 2,490,849 times
Reputation: 4250
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
True, we have built against ourselves for so long that it would take generations go reverse. Though currently there are places that see enough travel between the two to justify this. Not sure how many people commute between Minneapolis to Chicago, we would have to look at the number of flights that are doing that destination route and the number of people who are driving it to get a decent idea.

I know in the Northwest there is enough people who commute between Seattle and Portland to justify it.
HSR is unlikely to ever be a nationwide transportation solution for leisure travel, but I agree that there are some routes that make a lot of sense. Chicago-Minneapolis is actually one of the busiest business routes in the world. Both cities have huge concentrations of large corporations, and business travel is likely to be the dominant use for HSR. Currently, there are over forty daily round-trip flights between Minneapolis and one of the Chicago airports. The Midwest High Speed Rail Association identified this route as having the highest projected ridership and profit within the envisioned Midwest system.
 
Old 01-13-2015, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 29,451,107 times
Reputation: 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
The Amtrak Acela trains are NOT HIGHSPEED RAIL because they run on the same electrified rail lines built over 100 years ago by the Pennsylvania Railroad from NYC's Penn Station to Union Station in Washington DC. No one in Europe, Japan or China would consider a train that runs at 70 mph or less high speed rail. Rail lines built to the needed of the 1880s can't handle a German ICE ,Chinese CHR, Japanese Shinsan or French TGV train running at the speeds they are capable . Acela only looks the part of a modern train but not its performance. To understand how far behind we are, the NY Central Empire Builder once ran at nearly 100 mph on some of the straighter sections of its track between Chicago and Cleveland using steam power and did so 120 years ago. It nearly tore the tracks out but gave Commodore Vanderbilt bragging rights for having the fastest trains in service during the height of Americas railroading.
Of course they are not, it would require upgrading those rail lines to make that possible. Though I believe it does barely classify as high speed rail, but I might be incorrect there.
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