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Old 11-30-2012, 01:55 PM
 
16,553 posts, read 11,465,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
I can make the case because it is the truth. The whole point of the deferred tax thing is the getting the benefit of the company match which isn't taxed which is considered free money. Getting the immediate tax savings, and being able to have your tax rate be lower in retirement than when you were working.

That is three ways you don't pay the full tax. You cats are so damn dishonest and blind.

I already dealt with this fabrication. Those who participate in 401k plans ALSO participate in IRA's as well. So no matter how you want to lie, millions and millions of workers don't have access to a tax benefit that other workers do have access.

Again those who get the 401k can and do participate in IRA's. If your employer doesn't offer a 401k, no matter if you participate in an IRA you don't have access to a 401k and you don't get the same tax savings and free money.

This is why the 401k is a huge government giveaway.
Are you suggesting the money be taxed twice? That is exactly what it sounds like. Here's some more education for you. The reason you may pay less taxes when you retire is because you won't be pulling the same amount out of your 401k each year during retirement that you made each year while you were working. Let's say you make 100k while working. You are taxed based on that 100k income. When you retire and now you are pulling out 50k a year, you will only be paying income taxes as if you were working a 50k/yr job. Get it now?
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:58 PM
 
15,713 posts, read 9,210,551 times
Reputation: 14155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
Man you cats are so dishonest. That is the whole trick of the 401k as well, I was told when I first signed up for it that probably my tax rate would be lower when I retire and combined with the company match and the immediate tax savings, I understood as a huge government gift.

So what does your guesswork sentence have to do with anything when that very same thing can apply to those with a 401k? Oh nothing you are just throwing up word vomit.

It is a government giveaway. If you don't have a 401k plan your taxable income is not lowered your taxes are higher right now.

When I was single and contributing the max to may 401k and didn't own a home and was making over 100k, my 401k savings knock my taxable income down a lot. I saved a ton in taxes. A ton. So I understood completely if my employer didn't offer a 401k, I would have paid A LOT more in tax. To me that is the same as the government mailing me a check because I saved in a 401k plan.

Again, it doesn't matter if they save in an IRA or not. I have a 401k and a roth IRA, while the most they can have is an IRA. I am getting a government benefit/handout that they aren't. Their taxable income is not lowered from their 401k.

Again, they don't get the tax savings on the front end, and their retirement savings aren't treated any differently than those of us who were able to get that government handout for 30+years.

This is why the 401k plan is a handout basically for higher income individuals.

I know, I know it hurts, rugged individualists getting government handouts.

Now please deal with reality.
Who told you that? A psychic? Nobody can predict that. And at some point, people need to take responsibility for their own investments. It's called education, research and experience.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:59 PM
 
8,399 posts, read 5,289,840 times
Reputation: 2314
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
We've already established people can open an IRA to defer taxes at the front end.



And you consider to emphasize you aren't bright enough to get your arms around this whole "deferred" thing.
We have already established that those of us lucky enough to have an employer who offers us a 401k can also open up an IRA, while those whose employer's don't offer a 401k don't get the government tax benefits and handouts.

So again, I can have a 401k and an IRA, while a worker whose employer doesn't offer a 401k can't have a 401k.

They don't get those tax benefits and handouts. They don't have the government essentially mailing them a check because they saved in a 401k.

This is why the 401k is a huge government handout.

I have fully explained my understanding of the deferred tax thing. I already told you why even that is apart of the benefit because I was told that probably when I retire, I'll be in a lower taxable income rate than when I was working.

So part of the benefit is that the government won't get the full taxes they would have collected if they would have taken the money while I was working so I am saving money again. This was all apart of the pitch to sign up for the 401k plan and I saw it as a huge government gift to allow me save for retirement and pay lower taxes on that income all the way around.

Again you cats are so dishonest about this stuff.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,187 posts, read 17,514,782 times
Reputation: 15393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
Again those who get the 401k can and do participate in IRA's. If your employer doesn't offer a 401k, no matter if you participate in an IRA you don't have access to a 401k and you don't get the same tax savings and free money.

This is why the 401k is a huge government giveaway.
Well, again, keep trying the same lie, people aren't buying it. I have a really nice bridge to sell you in San Francisco if you believe that.

There is no difference between putting $2000 in a 401K and 2000 in an IRA, vs putting $4000 in one IRA. Your arguement makes no sense. I suppose it makes you feel good, so go with it. You'll pay the same either way.

As I mentioned, the ROTH makes more sense. At one point, people believed that they would pay taxes at a lower rate when they retire than while working. That is looking less and less likely, given the growth in government spending.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:01 PM
 
16,553 posts, read 11,465,994 times
Reputation: 4230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
We have already established that those of us lucky enough to have an employer who offers us a 401k can also open up an IRA, while those whose employer's don't offer a 401k don't get the government tax benefits and handouts.

So again, I can have a 401k and an IRA, while a worker whose employer doesn't offer a 401k can't have a 401k.

They don't get those tax benefits and handouts. They don't have the government essentially mailing them a check because they saved in a 401k.

This is why the 401k is a huge government handout.

I have fully explained my understanding of the deferred tax thing. I already told you why even that is apart of the benefit because I was told that probably when I retire, I'll be in a lower taxable income rate than when I was working.

So part of the benefit is that the government won't get the full taxes they would have collected if they would have taken the money while I was working so I am saving money again. This was all apart of the pitch to sign up for the 401k plan and I saw it as a huge government gift to allow me save for retirement and pay lower taxes on that income all the way around.

Again you cats are so dishonest about this stuff.
You didn't understand it then and still don't now.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:05 PM
 
8,399 posts, read 5,289,840 times
Reputation: 2314
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Who told you that? A psychic? Nobody can predict that. And at some point, people need to take responsibility for their own investments. It's called education, research and experience.
Nobody can predict anything. It was told to me by HR and the people they brought in from the place that manages our 401k accounts.

This was all presented as a possible savings. Now please don't be an idiot and think they are saying that my tax rate from right now would be lower than tax rates in the future.

What they meant was when I am still working say 30 years from whatever the tax rates are at that time, when I retire, I'll probably be in a lower tax bracket at that time.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:08 PM
 
15,713 posts, read 9,210,551 times
Reputation: 14155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
Nobody can predict anything. It was told to me by HR and the people they brought in from the place that manages our 401k accounts.

This was all presented as a possible savings. Now please don't be an idiot and think they are saying that my tax rate from right now would be lower than tax rates in the future.

What they meant was when I am still working say 30 years from whatever the tax rates are at that time, when I retire, I'll probably be in a lower tax bracket at that time.
But you're pissed because they were wrong? I'm confused.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:09 PM
 
8,399 posts, read 5,289,840 times
Reputation: 2314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Well, again, keep trying the same lie, people aren't buying it. I have a really nice bridge to sell you in San Francisco if you believe that.

There is no difference between putting $2000 in a 401K and 2000 in an IRA, vs putting $4000 in one IRA. Your arguement makes no sense. I suppose it makes you feel good, so go with it. You'll pay the same either way.

As I mentioned, the ROTH makes more sense. At one point, people believed that they would pay taxes at a lower rate when they retire than while working. That is looking less and less likely, given the growth in government spending.
LOL You can save a maximum of 17,000 in a 401k plan. You can save a maximum of 5000 in an IRA. There is a huge difference.

Keep lying to yourself.

The 401k plan is a huge government giveaway that isn't available to millions of working Americans. They don't get the huge tax savings. They don't get the free company money. They don't get essentially for the government to mail them a check.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:10 PM
 
16,268 posts, read 9,078,756 times
Reputation: 6540
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD View Post
You didn't understand it then and still don't now.

I think it is pretty clear what Iamme73 understands.

It is simple and it is very clear liberal ideology. It works like this. All we have is the governments. When the government does not take something from us, then the government has "spent" something on us.

in the case of 401k's apparanly if there was no such thing, and all those dollars were taxed at the income rate they would have been had those dollars not been saved, the government would have collected 82 Billion per year.

Liberals in congress say it this way "We have spent 82 Billion dollars for upper income people to save for retirement while the poor have gotten nothing"


That is an almost direct quote.

Our friend here sees it in those terms.

We see it directly opposite. We see that the government exists at our good pleasure. We do not exist at its good pleasure. We deserve all that we make, but believe for the good of ourselves and all in our society, that some of what we earn needs to be taken to run a government that protects us from predation and secures our God given rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Our thinking is as alien to those who think like our friend here, as our friends thinking is alien to us. This is the sould of why we cannot find common ground in our politics. We simply see things vastly different.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:16 PM
 
16,268 posts, read 9,078,756 times
Reputation: 6540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
LOL You can save a maximum of 17,000 in a 401k plan. You can save a maximum of 5000 in an IRA. There is a huge difference.

Keep lying to yourself.

The 401k plan is a huge government giveaway that isn't available to millions of working Americans. They don't get the huge tax savings. They don't get the free company money. They don't get essentially for the government to mail them a check.
There is no such thing as "the free company money".

There are "benefits" that some companies offer to entice high quality people to work for them. Those businesses that do not offer such inducements do so at their own risk of losing those workers that are interested in those benefits.

It is true that the 401k does offer greater pre-tax savings that those who do not have that vehicle. That is not a "government giveaway". If it is an inequity, then it needs to be addressed.

But that does not mean those who work in companies that offer 401k are getting a "government handout". All Americans have equal access to such jobs. Not all Americans have qualified themselves for those jobs: either by education, experience or intention.
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