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Old 01-20-2013, 09:50 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,090 posts, read 82,726,620 times
Reputation: 43659

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Now, can you provide any substantive fact-based evidence from a primary source
to prove that any form of universal health care in the US would significantly reduce costs or not?
Is that the standard? How about the inverse then?

Can you provide any substantive fact-based evidence from a primary source
to prove that any form of universal health care in the US would NOT significantly reduce costs?

Both are logical fallacies which assume facts not in evidence... that cannot be in evidence.

Try this question:
What form of universal health care in the US would significantly reduce costs?
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,685,010 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
Not impressed, indeed...lol. Not that I come on this forum to impress people...lol.

Don't know if this counts as a "primary" source or not, but this was the 3rd item down when I googled US and CDN health care costs: Using Canada's Health System as Model Might Cut U.S. Costs: Study - US News and World Report

It's clear that per capita health care costs in Canada are less than that of the US - and most importantly, everyone in Canada has equal access to medical care, regardless of ability to pay. Sure, there's a finite amount of health care available - no system in the world will ever be able to overcome that, but at least in Canada, health care is distributed in a fair and equitable manner, which is what we here in the US should strive for. The issue of cost has to be decided by how much the populace is willing to pay - want gold-plated health care for everyone, then we'll have to pay for it somehow, if we wanna go cheap, then we'll have to settle for less health care - we'll save that debate for the political forum...lol.

I agree, my friend is just one person out of 39 million, but what about the 35 million other Canadians that will say the same thing about their health care system? Any system that enjoys 90% popular support has got to be a phenomenal one - how anyone can argue against that is beyond me.

'Nuff said...
Well said, NorthStar. And from today's SF Chronicle comes these words about how Canadians feel regarding their healthcare system:


The problem is compounded because the American media are not terribly interested in foreign experience with public policy and, when they turn to such a subject, it is often because American actors are using such experience to praise or blame some domestic U.S. initiative, program, or point of view. Domestic interest groups provide the spur to such stories, and the richest of such groups overwhelmingly want to attack the Canadian model.

To the extent American journalists interpret balance and objectivity as quoting the views of contending parties, the imbalance in what they hear distorts the story they tell.
Precisely because Canada has achieved comparatively good value for money through a government program, it represents an ideological threat to a number of interest groups in the United States. Private health insurance firms play a relatively minor role in Canada, insuring only those services and goods not covered by their medicare. Second, Canadian medicare relies largely on price controls to keep physician fees and drug prices far below those that prevail in the United States. Canada thus poses a threat to the American health insurance industry, to the pharmaceutical industry, and to a substantial portion of the American medical profession. At one time or another, all three groups have conducted lobbying campaigns to discredit Canada's medicare.

IN CRITICAL CONDITION: HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA / CANADA'S WAY / What a universal health care system delivers, good and bad - SFGate

This article indicates a primary reason I have to doubt all "findings" that Mircea has. He has some sort of vested interest he is trying to protect.

And from the same article, comes a comment from a Canadian doctor working in the U.S.

Dr. Catherine Kurosu is a gynecologist at two San Diego hospitals. A Canadian, she said the biggest differences between the two systems are that poorer Americans won't seek medical care until their problems have become serious. In addition, she said, American insurers often play games to avoid paying bills.

Read more: IN CRITICAL CONDITION: HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA / CANADA'S WAY / What a universal health care system delivers, good and bad - SFGate
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Palo Alto
12,149 posts, read 8,401,836 times
Reputation: 4190
Americans are crying because of a 2% increase in payroll taxes. Healthcare in Canada isn't free. It's paid by taxes that everyone pays. Their tax system is much flatter at the lower end (regressive). Everyone should be prepared for the cost and wiling to make the sacrifice.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,108,889 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
Don't know if this counts as a "primary" source or not...
No, it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
It's clear that per capita health care costs in Canada are less than that of the US...
Last update 25.10.11
Extracted on 06.01.13
Source of Data Eurostat
UNIT Euro per inhabitant
ICHA_HC Health care expenditure
ICHA_HP All providers of health care

Romania.......310.39

They're less in Romania, too.

So, what's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
... - and most importantly, everyone in Canada has equal access to medical care, regardless of ability to pay.
"At issue in Chaoulli was whether, in the face of long wait times, it was constitutional for the Quebec government to ban private insurance for medically necessary care."

Source: Dr. Colleen Flood 2010, Special Issue of Health, Economics, Policy & Law on choice in European systems of health care

I'm guessing you did not read the decision of the Canadian Supreme Court vis-a-vis the Chaoulli law suit.

I'm also guessing you did not know that in some Provinces, it was illegal to have private insurance before the Chaoulli ruling.

And I'm guessing you did not know that there are incredibly long wait times for medically necessary care in Canada.

What would really impress the hell out of me, is if people actually studied the healthcare systems of other countries, instead of just ranting about anecdotal evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
Sure, there's a finite amount of health care available - no system in the world will ever be able to overcome that --
That is the first sensible thing you've said, and as it stands, you are 100% correct.

The Capital used in health care includes time, space, personnel/manpower, cash, credit, technology and many other things....including foreign imported light oils to be refined into organic alcohol chains like Neodol-65 and Neodol-67 which are necessary for your pharmaceuticals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
..., but at least in Canada, health care is distributed in a fair and equitable manner,...
Is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
... which is what we here in the US should strive for.
No, you should not. You cannot violate the Laws of Economics, and if you do, then people suffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
The issue of cost has to be decided by how much the populace is willing to pay - want gold-plated health care for everyone, then we'll have to pay for it somehow, if we wanna go cheap, then we'll have to settle for less health care...
Settle for less? Why in the hell would you ever do that? Does it make sense to kill five people in an attempt to save one person, when you don't even know if you can save that person?

If you are that altruistic -- that you are willing to let you and your family members receive less care so that someone else might -- then fine, but you have no right to compel others to do the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
I agree, my friend is just one person out of 39 million,...
34,482,779 Canadians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
Any system that enjoys 90% popular support has got to be a phenomenal one - how anyone can argue against that is beyond me.
Canadians, like Brits and Germans, don't know any other way. If the only music you've ever heard is classical music, then how could you possibly compare/contrast it with other styles of music? That's absurd.

I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that governments lie about health care outcomes.

Primarily...

Mircea
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:22 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,090 posts, read 82,726,620 times
Reputation: 43659
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperJohn View Post
Healthcare in Canada isn't free. It's paid by taxes that everyone pays.
Their tax system is much flatter at the lower end (regressive).
On a straight up numerical basis (more people)... it would have to flatter at the lower end.

Quote:
Everyone should be prepared for the cost and wiling to make the sacrifice.
Is it OK if I'm prepared but not so willing? How about not willing at all?
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,463,928 times
Reputation: 11937
As a Canadian living in Canada I find myself sitting here shaking my head.Some Americans talk about freedom, but have a weird sense of it. If somehow you are enslaved by a corporation, that's fine, but anything governmental is immediately suspect.
We the people indeed.
Universal Healthcare is something Canadians cherish and want to protect because it too is under attack by right wing and business forces. Please don't quote me anecdotal stories of some who have issues, that exists in all systems. The numbers prove time and time again that the vast majority of Canadians want to keep universal healthcare and improve on it while not destroying the basic belief that healthcare is a human right.

Mircea's comment "... I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that governments lie about health care outcomes."

is paranoid and without proof. It's a type of statement that is used when someone knows they don't have an rational answer. Discredit the source or any facts that get in the way of the big lie.
Also Mircea. I think " thou protest too much "
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:47 PM
 
Location: The Triad
34,090 posts, read 82,726,620 times
Reputation: 43659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
The numbers prove time and time again that the vast majority of Canadians want to keep universal healthcare and improve on it while not destroying the basic belief that healthcare is a human right.
Depending on how the concept is presented...
the majority of Americans want some sort of universal healthcare as well.

The devil, as they say, is in the details.
In particular how we define and manage the expenses of that "healthcare is a human right" thing.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
4,439 posts, read 5,510,481 times
Reputation: 3395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
As a Canadian living in Canada I find myself sitting here shaking my head.Some Americans talk about freedom, but have a weird sense of it. If somehow you are enslaved by a corporation, that's fine, but anything governmental is immediately suspect.
We the people indeed.
Universal Healthcare is something Canadians cherish and want to protect because it too is under attack by right wing and business forces. Please don't quote me anecdotal stories of some who have issues, that exists in all systems. The numbers prove time and time again that the vast majority of Canadians want to keep universal healthcare and improve on it while not destroying the basic belief that healthcare is a human right.

Mircea's comment "... I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that governments lie about health care outcomes."

is paranoid and without proof. It's a type of statement that is used when someone knows they don't have an rational answer. Discredit the source or any facts that get in the way of the big lie.
Also Mircea. I think " thou protest too much "
You bet - and there are reams and reams of data to back this up. Resistance is futile...lol.

As an American, I have nothing but admiration for Canada's style of governance, and I can only wish that we'd do things the "Canadian way" down here. Maybe one of these days we'll get there, once people realize how much we've been screwed over by the corporate interests.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,463,928 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight View Post
You bet - and there are reams and reams of data to back this up. Resistance is futile...lol.

As an American, I have nothing but admiration for Canada's style of governance, and I can only wish that we'd do things the "Canadian way" down here. Maybe one of these days we'll get there, once people realize how much we've been screwed over by the corporate interests.
Thanks but we do have issues. Many do not like the current federal government and are critical of how our system can let someone with only 35 percent or so of the popular vote become PM. Especially a PM that seems to be friends with the oil industry more than a real leader of Canada.
There is talk of electoral reform of some sort to improve on our system.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,108,889 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I finally figured out your ploy with your "healthcare" statistics and went to a couple of the sites you linked. No one of any ordinary amount of intelligence can make any sense of them--and I'm pretty sure you know that --- which is the reason that every single one of your posts are so lengthy and full of B.S. that you are hopeful no one will notice.
You made this claim….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
If we want to talk about insurance, I do have significant, if old, experience. I served in the insurance field for over 30 years as an underwriter, ratemaker, and compliance officer. I served three years on the Board of Directors of the Association of Insurance Compliance Professionals, two of those as the elected Treasurer of AICP.
And you can’t read a simple table? You can’t parse a simple paragraph?

Which part of the following…..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

You can find the Acrobat File here:

http://www.gao.gov/assets/650/648482.pdf

I direct your attention to Page 3 of that document, which states the following….

A variety of activities are funded through VHA’s three appropriations accounts for medical care:

• The Medical Services account includes funds for health care services provided to eligible veterans and beneficiaries in VA’s medical centers, outpatient clinic facilities, contract hospitals, state homes, and outpatient programs on a fee basis. For fiscal year 2012, VA received more than $39.6 billion in the Medical Services account.

• The Medical Support and Compliance account includes funds for the management and administration of the VA health care system, including financial management, human resources, and logistics. For fiscal year 2012, VA received more than $5.5 billion in the Medical Support and Compliance account.

• The Medical Facilities account includes funds for the operation and maintenance of the VA health care system’s capital infrastructure, such as costs associated with nonrecurring maintenance, utilities, facility repair, laundry services, and grounds keeping. For fiscal year 2012, VA received more than $5.4 billion in the Medical Facilities account.



….do you not understand?

You said….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I finally figured out your ploy with your "healthcare" statistics and went to a couple of the sites you linked. No one of any ordinary amount of intelligence can make any sense of them—
….which really means you can’t understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You never quote any nationally or internationally published figures, because they don't fit into your narrow-minded view of healthcare.
That statement is so obtuse I don’t even know how to retort to it.

The national sources I have quoted in this thread are…

US Government General Accounting Office
Congressional Research Service
Congressional Budget Office
US GovernmentCenter for Disease Control
US Department of Veteran Affairs
The Boards Of Trustees, FederalHospital Insurance And Federal Supplementary Medical Insurance Trust Funds (the Medicare Trustees).

The international sources I have quoted in this thread are…

European Commission of the European Union EuroStats

IZA DP No. 1469 Health Care Expenditures in OECD Countries: A Panel Unit Root and Cointegration Analysis Christian Dreger, Hans-Eggert Reimers, Forschungsinstitut
zur Zukunft der Arbeit Institute for the Study of Labor January 2005

IEA Health and Welfare Unit Choice in Welfare No. 55 Delay, Denial and Dilution: The Impact of NHS Rationing on Heart Disease and Cancer IEA Health and Welfare Unit
London
Dutch Health Care Performance Report 2010 National Institute for Public Health
and the Environment, The Netherlands, May 2010

European Parliament Directorate General For Research Working Paper Health Care Systems In The EU: A Comparative Study

Liberalisation, privatisation and regulation in the German healthcare sector/hospitals
Thorsten Schulten, Wirtschafts- und Sozialwissenschaftliches Institut (WSI)

Rationing Of Medical Services In Europe: An Empirical Study Institut National d’Etudes Démographiques, Rapport sur la situation démographique de la France, Paris, 2001

The non-governmental sources of information I used in this thread are from…

NationalCenter For Policy Analysis Measuring the Unfunded Obligations of European Countries

How Germany is reining in health care costs An interview with Franz Knieps

Canada Research Chair in Health Law & Policy, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto and Scientific Director, CIHR Institute of Health Services and Policy Research.

Using Taxes to Reform Health Insurance: Pitfalls and Promises - Henry J. Aaron, Cox, Leonard E. Burman - Google Books


InnoThinkCenter For Research In Biomedical Innovation


thechristhospital.com
atriummedcenter.org

In light of the sources I have used, you might want to be concerned about how a rational objective person would view your claim that I “…never quote any nationally or internationally published figures…”

For the record, your sources have been…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
This is from a physician outside the United States and written in 2009:
This is what you were quoting…

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyG View Post
As a physician myself, I'm actually surprised…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Bloomberg.com would hardly be considered a "government" source. Here is their take:…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
In previous posts I have listed data and charts from:

Children's Defense Fund
Fierce Healthcare
Bloomberg.com
Gallup
Census Bureau
Factcheck.Org
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
From PBS Newshour:…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You now have the following organizations listed as liars:

Children's Defense Fund
Fierce Healthcare
Bloomberg.com
Gallup
Census Bureau
FactCheck.Org
Reuters
PBS Newshour

and I suppose
Physicians Practice
Note: I am not the person being addressed in that post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I live in Canada, and we have a national, universal health care system, that is paid for by ALL OF US, through our income and sales taxes. IT IS NOT FREE.

It covers all Canadian citizens and legal Immigrants to
Canada.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbidave
After a great deal of observation and having decades of in hospital experience working in a country system, hospital chain (HCA)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
From Yahoo answers comes a comment by a Canadian user who calls himself "freeside":
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Germans are confused over the U.S. beliefs about healthcare:

Germans Confused Over U.S. Healthcare Debate | The Lund Report

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Here is a link to a 2011 article. It's already outdated because the GDP cost of our healthcare is already approaching 18%:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-hard-truth-about-health-care-government-works/2011/05/19/AGcE95KH_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
From Chron magazine:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Well, here is some FRONT line views of a couple of nurses posted on another thread. Where is all that money going from a PROFIT system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stellar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Taiwan is the last major country to adopt a health care system.
Health Care Reform Series: The health care system of Taiwan - National liberal | Examiner.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
[/quote]

Seriously, Yahoo! Answers? BigDaddyG?

You made this claim….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
If we want to talk about insurance, I do have significant, if old, experience. I served in the insurance field for over 30 years as an underwriter, ratemaker, and compliance officer. I served three years on the Board of Directors of the Association of Insurance Compliance Professionals, two of those as the elected Treasurer of AICP.
…and these claims…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I've been researching health insurance systems online for sometime now and feel I have some degree of knowledge about the inefficiency in ours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I apologize to all for infractions on copyright material. I'm a good researcher, not a good computer person--as in, how do you make a link!!
….and the best you can do is newspaper and magazine articles, Yahoo!Answers and some guy calling himself BigDaddyG?


You’re going to compare this international source…

…with the international sources I’ve used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Did you fail to answer my question about how much stock you have in the healthcare/pharmaceutical industry?
I don’t own any stocks at all.

For the record, I would never buy stocks…

09-16-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
He is a "nutjob." Who cares about the stock-market?

The colonies and the US did just fine without a stock-market for 300 years.

Stock-markets aren't necessary. All forms of business have dozens of ways to raise capital. Publicly traded corporations have all of those dozens of ways to raise capital, plus one additional method of raising capital (the sale of stocks) that other forms of business don't have.

All markets inevitably crash and stocks are long-term investments, not short-term (unless your sole source of income is from stock sales).

No stock market crash has ever caused a recession or depression and recessions and depressions occur with or without stock markets.
Please note the date of that post.

I don’t believe in stocks, so I don’t own them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
And you are so smart you know what I did with my whole life.

So here is the record for you and any of your dumb headed butties to peruse over.
Uh, I’ll just be blunt and say I don’t give a damn if you’re dead or time-traveling or the Ghost of Christmas Past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Now, there is my entire life work record for anyone to review. And to everyone else, Mr Mircea has the unmitigated gall to say I don't know what I'm talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

Figure 5 VA’s Expenditures on Health Care Services per Enrollee, by Priority Group, 2008
What part of “Enrollee” do you not understand?

You are so desperate you will seize on anything. I gave you the bait, and you took it.

The Congress of the United States, Congressional Budget Office: Potential Costs of Veterans’ Health Care October 2010

Had you bothered to read the report, you would see that the primary issue is the potential costs of veteran’s health care.

This…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
If we want to talk about insurance, I do have significant, if old, experience. I served in the insurance field for over 30 years as an underwriter, ratemaker, and compliance officer. I served three years on the Board of Directors of the Association of Insurance Compliance Professionals, two of those as the elected Treasurer of AICP.
…is who you claim to be, and you of all people should understand that the number of enrollees is not the same as the number of patients, but the number of enrollees does affect potential future costs.

Did you not make this claim…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I did actuarial work for years, so I'm a numbers guy.
….yes, you did, and you don’t even know what you’re talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Here is what healthcare industry is about today---money for the rich (you?), money for the powerful (you?) and you are in my opinion the Joseph Goebbels of the health industry on this thread.

So Joseph, go ahead with more of your spin. You know not only about the health industry, you know all about my life--at least now you should. I"m not ashamed of it, but a man with five degrees (I was working while you got those degrees) who is unable to see what healthcare as we have it is doing to the country is either dumber than a box of rocks--and I dont think you are---or you have something to hide from all of us about your vested interest in the health industry.

National health care may not be a panacea, but it would be a damn sight better than what people are suffering with right now.
I welcome this, because it is something we discuss frequently on P&OC Forum and you just gave me a shining example to parade in front of everyone.

For the record, the two undergraduate degrees, and the two graduate degrees I got this century, within the last 10 years. Yes, I was just hooded 8 years ago.

I presented factual evidence from the aforementioned sources I cited and debunked and destroyed every single claim you made regarding health care.

What did you do? In typical Liberal fashion, you said this….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Big George either has a lot of stock in HCA, United Healthcare, and Aetna and has a vested interest in continuing to put money in his pocket,…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You can continue to smoke that pipe if you want, but I believe you must have a significant amount of stock in for profit hospitals or in pharmaceuticals, so that you have a vested interest in the for profit system.
…because you got beaten with facts, so the smear campaign cranks up…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Just so we can understand something of your character, Mircea,…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
So, you have another "free" market solution. Or just another person of "character" that chooses to let people perish because they cannot afford care?

The "facts" are up to debate among which ones you will accept, but character, or lack thereof, is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
So healthcare for everyone is ALL about character.

…when that fails you move the goal-posts to make it about “character”…..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
The callousness you display toward those people is what I stated before---an issue of character.

The rich never see their selfishness as callous. They just smile and count their gold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
But a John Bircher like yourself isn't worried about society as a whole. Which is exactly the social and political problem we face as a nation.

Healthcare is not just about the money--it's about character.

…and then character with more attempts to smear…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Guess your able to dismiss HMS and FamiliesUSA as just liberal liars unlike the misguided, misinformed group you represent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You cling so blindly to your political view that it clouds your ability to see the fact that healthcare in the U.S. is crumbling--as physicians state, as many politicians state, as your own MITT ROMNEY stated….
….then attempts to crow-bar into a political party….which is really embarrassing since I’m a registered Democrat, I’m not a Republican, and I typically vote for 3rd Party Candidates like Independents, the Constitution Party and the Socialist Party….and I voted for Gary Johnson…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Well, no need to call you a liar, the facts speak for themselves. From FORBES, hardly a left-wing media source are the following snippets:…
…another attempt to smear and politicize the issue….after being thoroughly defeated here…

Last update 25.10.11
Extracted on 06.01.13
Source of Data Eurostat
UNIT Euro per inhabitant
ICHA_HC Health care expenditure
ICHA_HP All providers of health care

Romania.......310.39
Switzerland....... 5,215.64
Norway....... 5,343.49
Luxembourg....... 5,438.46
United States....... 5,684.68


UNIT Euro per inhabitant
ICHA_HF General government

Romania....... 241.10
United States....... 2,657.86
Switzerland .......3,114.60
Netherlands .......3,271.16
Denmark .......3,775.17
Luxembourg .......4,105.86
Norway .......4,195.13

UNIT Euro per inhabitant
ICHA_HF Private household out-of-pocket expenditure

Romania .......63.95
United States....... 697.13
Norway .......805.54
Switzerland....... 1,590.18

….seriously, Forbes Magazine trumps the European Commission of the European Union?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
So, Mircea, you are not well-informed. You are stuck with singularly outmoded sources of information…
…then starts attacking US and European government sources of information as “outmoded” …

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You like to throw out lots of information in one post to hide discrepancies in your information…
…when that fails, back to the smear…even though no specific discrepancies are mentioned…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
This is like trying to argue with a racist or religious fanatic.
…and onto the tried and true allusions to racism or some sort of religious whack-job….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Here is what healthcare industry is about today---money for the rich (you?), money for the powerful (you?) and you are in my opinion the Joseph Goebbels of the health industry on this thread…
…and finally…

Godwin’s Law….with smears.

“A term that originated on Usenet, Godwin's Law states that as an online argument grows longer and more heated, it becomes increasingly likely that..”

I really would like to have a rational debate on health care issues, but obviously that’s not going to happen on this thread.

I’ve stated since 2007 here on C-D that your health care system is broke; explained in nauseating detail how it came to be broke; and explained in even more nauseating and boring detail how to fix it….

…and it does not require a national health care system – which would be legitimate grounds for civil war --- nor does it require a single payer system run by the federal government, although it may be possible for certain States to implement some form of single payer system without destroying the State’s economy.

Oddly, those who recognize the health care system is broke and desire to address that, but simultaneously refuse a national health system (on very legitimate grounds) or national universal plan are labeled as “defective.”

Aside from that, does anyone need help extracting data from the European Commission of European Union's web-site EuroStats?


I realize that people who spent 30 years in the insurance industry never saw a computer and thus are totally computer illiterate, and admittedly the EuroStat cite can be a bit intimidating, but I learned on the fly, and it isn't that hard once you start extracting data.


Factually...


Mircea
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