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Another thing we do in this country is provide first class coverage for inmates and thugs who have committed mayhem and get injured in the process. I recall a gangbanger in LA that got a million bucks of care after having been shot up in a gang battle. Then there is the inmate who got the sex change ordered by a judge. We don't need any more "help" bankrupting an already bankrupt country.
On a straight up numerical basis (more people)... it would have to flatter at the lower end.
Is it OK if I'm prepared but not so willing? How about not willing at all?
My solution is not popular because there are consequences. If you have private insurance, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to opt out of a national plan. If you show up seeking care and you're not insured I would leave you at the front door. That sounds harsh and cold, but it actually is more compassionate in total than what we do currently.
I don't need Social Security. If I never collect a dime I won't be affected. But I paid in and plan on applying for benefits. If they offered me a lump sum today of just my contributions (they can keep the match) I would take it and waive all rights to future benefits.
What this means is that a national plan needs complete transparency.
Right now there isn't one of us who believes a word our government says. It's all lies from both sides. We should have the option to make decisions based on facts, not political pandering.
My solution is not popular because there are consequences.
If you have private insurance, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to opt out of a national plan.
pssst: even with a national plan you'll still need that private insurance to supplement it.
Well, that is if you want to actually receive the higher standards of care that everyone else thinks
they have a right to by default but can't pay for (and so won't actually get).
The level of care that the great mass of people can count on receiving...
short of the thrashing that our terminal and elderly get in their last days...
doesn't require the sort of "insurance" plans we currently have or might have under ACA.
pssst: even with a national plan you'll still need that private insurance to supplement it.
Well, that is if you want to actually receive the higher standards of care that everyone else thinks
they have a right to by default but can't pay for (and so won't actually get).
The level of care that the great mass of people can count on receiving...
short of the thrashing that our terminal and elderly get in their last days...
doesn't require the sort of "insurance" plans we currently have or might have under ACA.
SHI is the term used for Statutory Health Insurance. That is what you're obligated to pay in a national healthcare system like in Britain, Sweden or Italy, or in a single-payer system as in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, BENELUX, Denmark, Norway et al.
VHI is the term used for Voluntary Health Insurance (PHI -- Private Health Insurance sometimes used).
VHI comes in three varieties: Substitutive, Complementary and Supplemental.
Substitutive: Effectively Opt-Out health plans. The Netherlands, Germany, et al allow people with certain levels of income to opt-out of the Statutory Health Insurance plan and pay for your own.
Why would anyone even consider doing that?
Well, maybe all of you should take a seat.....
In contrast to the Dutch system pre-2006 where the top 30 percent of the population was not permitted to be covered by the statutory scheme, in Germany those earning above €48,000 per year may choose to opt out and either buy private insurance or self insure. The reader who is wondering why an individual in Germany may choose private health insurance needs to understand that for a healthy single individual it is often cheaper to be in the private health insurance plan than to contribute to the social health insurance system (Greβ, 2007). There may also be non-financial incentives for individuals to move to private insurance as the range of services covered by private insurance may be more comprehensive and may include drugs or treatments not covered by social health insurance plans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
You are stuck with singularly outmoded sources of information….
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
You never quote any nationally or internationally published figures, because they don't fit into your narrow-minded view of healthcare.
Oh, yes, indeed, that would be more of those facts from a singularly outmoded source of information that never comes from nationally or internationally published figures that seem to get in the way of rational debate.
I posted that earlier in the thread......not one person even attempted to debunk or refute...but then the truth cannot be debunked or refuted.
I read the original study in German, but later found an English version, so double dumbass on me, not that it really matters...
For those who don't already know, the Netherlands is located in Outer Space, so this would be a universally published figure, according to certain people.
Oh wait, I messed that up.....the Netherlands is floating around in the Milky Way Galaxy, so that would mean the source is a galactically published figure. If the Netherlands would be drifting around the Andromeda Galaxy, then it would be a universally published figure....or no, uh, inter-galactic. Never mind.
It was Dr. Colleen M. Flood, Canada Research Chair in Health Law & Policy, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto and Scientific Director, CIHR Institute of Health Services and Policy Research that did cited
Greβ and I had to follow up on her work to make sure it was kosher.
Dr Flood is another one of those....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
You are stuck with singularly outmoded sources of information….
...singularly outmoded sources, and not that the University of Toronto...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
You never quote any nationally or internationally published figures, because they don't fit into your narrow-minded view of healthcare.
...is floating around in Outer Space just like the Netherlands, since it is neither nationally or internationally known, recognized or published.
So, private insurance is often cheaper than State-sponsored insurance -- imagine that.
Why get Complimentary VHI?
So that you can be insured to cover medical services, procedures and treatment plans -- including pharmaceutical drugs -- that are not included in the State plan.
Austria: Medically necessary, sufficient, appropriate (see General Social Insurance Act (ASVG), §133[2])
Belgium : Medical necessity, activity, cost effectiveness, safety (by Royal Decree)
France : Inscription of new medical and surgical procedures after advice of ANAES on efficacy and safety
Germany : Medically necessary, effective, cost effective (see Social Code Book (SGB) V, §135[1])
Luxembourg :
Sufficient, appropriate (see Code des assurances sociales, art. 17,1)
or
Medically necessary, effective, efficient (see Code des assurances sociales, art. 23,1)
Netherlands : Medically necessary (see Sickness Fund Act (ZFW), preamble)
Switzerland : Effective, appropriate, cost-efficient (see Swiss Insurance Law (KVG), §32)
The UK also has similar criteria....
"Appropriateness criteria govern when and for whom a treatment or service included in the benefits package is funded. Appropriateness criteria may entail clinical criteria that a patient has to meet before a given treatment is deemed appropriate and therefore funded."
I posted that previously, too, and no one refuted it, because the truth cannot be refuted....and the truth hurts worse than Obamacare does.
So, what do they cover? It runs the gamut. As best as I can tell, no two Euro-States are even remotely similar in what the cover with respect to medical care, medical procedures, medical treatments or pharmaceuticals.
Basic medical care? That's vague and ambiguous -- each Euro-State defines it, but none define it the same.
Complimentary VHI also covers statutory costs and payments in many countries. That would be akin to having health insurance for health care co-payments or health care deductibles.
Imagine having a $15 doctor office visit co-pay, and then getting insurance to pay the $15 co-pay... Americans would be all over that, and then demand that someone else pay their insurance to pay the co-pay for their health insurance.
Supplementary VHI is used to get faster access to doctors and hospitals, especially to specialists, and to get bennies like semi-private rooms and private rooms.
This is one of the Great Disconnects between Americans and the rest of the world.
Americans stupidly think the rest of the world gets the same level of care they do, complete with all of the bennies, which include private rooms, jacuzzi, cable/satellite TV, on-demand movies, on-demand dining and Feng Sui...
The Christ Hospital
2139 Auburn Ave.
513-585-2000
thechristhospital.com
* Additional Features: All-private birthing suites and post-partum rooms; feng sui and hydrotherapy birthing suites; nursing staff with an average 20 years experience; new interactive TV system; dine-on-demand room service; updated infant security system; no restrictions on visitation hours (some limitations may be in place during flu season); neonatologists on call 24 hours; Special Care Nursery with individualized bed space that can be personalized
Atrium Medical Center’s Family Birth Center
1 Medical Center Dr., Middletown
513-424-2111
atriummedcenter.org
* Children permitted in delivery room with mother’s approval. Additional Features: Board-certified doctors and nurses experienced in obstetrics, neonatal care, including nursery and fetal monitoring. Contemporary birthing suites include flat-screen TVs,On-Demand movies and bathrooms with showers and jet tubs. Babies may stay in nursery or “room†with mom; fold-out sofas for overnight guests. Prenatal services and childbirth education classes available.
You see....you don't get that in Europe or anywhere else.
American health care is just like their 4,400 square foot McMansion Start Castles.
And by the way.....Flood....she's discussing the Chaoulli case, where the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that a regulation banning private health insurance for medically necessary care to be unconstitutional.
Simple story....
Province of Quebec bans private health insurance. Someone need medical treatment for medically necessary care and was denied treatment, so the person (Chaoulli) bought private insurance anyway and tried to use it to get the medical treatment they needed.
Perhaps you should all be sitting down, because these are the exclusions permitted for VHI/PHI
Austria
Individual: pre-existing conditions usually excluded (but not from group policies);
insurers cannot reject applications but may charge higher premiums and/or introduce
cost-sharing arrangements for people with chronic illnesses
Belgium
Mutual: psychiatric and long-term care (lump sum)
Mutual: psychiatric care (co-payment)
Commercial: pre-existing conditions, infertility treatment, sporting injuries
Denmark
Pre-existing conditions
Note: Denmark does not cover abortions past the 12th week of pregnancy, unless the Minister of Justice has granted permission.
Think that will fly in the US?
The Minister of Justice only grants permission to save the life of the mother, or prevent additional physical damage to the mother, or in the case it is known the infant has birth defects (euthanasia).
Think that would fly in the US?
Finland
Pregnancy and childbirth, infertility treatment, alcoholism, herbal remedies, treatment covered by statutory health insurance
France
Excluding any disease is forbidden by law, although it can be authorized in individual policies under certain conditions: the disease has to be clearly stated and the insurer has to prove that the patient had the disease before purchasing the policy
Germany
Pre-existing conditions are excluded if they were known at the time of underwriting and were not disclosed by the insured; declared pre-existing conditions are covered but generally result in higher premiums
Greece
Pre-existing conditions
Ireland
Open enrolment
Italy
Individual: pre-existing conditions, chronic and recurrent diseases, mental illness, alcohol and drug addiction, cosmetic surgery, war risks, injuries arising from insurrection, natural disasters etc; also often excludes dental care not caused by accident/illness
Group: pre-existing conditions such as diabetes, drug and alcohol addiction, HIV/AIDS, severe mental health problems such as schizophrenia, voluntary termination of pregnancy and war risks
Luxembourg
Mutual: open enrollment (but no cover for treatment excluded from Statutory Health Insurance)
Commercial: pre-existing conditions
Netherlands
Some dental plans may require people to have their teeth restored before acceptance
Portugal
Individual: pre-existing conditions, long-term chronic illnesses (such as diabetes, multiple sclerosis and asthma), HIV/AIDS, haemodialysis, self-inflicted injuries, psychiatric treatments, check-ups, dental care, outpatient drugs, alternative medicine and non-evidence based treatment; dental care, delivery costs and outpatient drugs are only covered by the most expensive policies
Spain
HIV/AIDS, alcoholism and drug addiction, dental care (often available for a supplementary premium), prosthesis, infertility treatment, orthopaedics etc; some insurers do not have general restrictions but may reject certain conditions; most insurers offer extra benefits for a supplementary premium eg organ transplants, second opinion, family planning, assistance during trips, treatment abroad, certain prosthesis; only one insurer offers homeopathy or spa treatment
Sweden
Emergency care, long-term care, HIV/AIDS, some other communicable diseases, diseases and injuries as a result of the use of alcohol or other intoxicating substances, pre-natal care, child birth (normal or with complications), termination of pregnancy, infertility treatment, vaccinations
UK
Pre-existing conditions, GP services, accident and emergency admission, long-term chronic illnesses such as diabetes, multiple sclerosis and asthma, drug abuse, selfinflicted injuries, outpatient drugs and dressings, HIV/AIDS, infertility, normal pregnancy and child birth, cosmetic surgery, gender reassignment, preventive treatment, kidney dialysis, mobility aids, experimental treatment and drugs, organ transplants, war risks and injuries arising from hazardous pursuits
That is more singularly outmoded information from the World Health Organization's European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies Spring 2004, Volume 6, Number 1 (no copyright restrictions), which I've posted before and some people apparently believe the WHO is floating on an asteroid out in Space.
I'm guessing some people have a lot to learn. Supplementing...
SHI is the term used for Statutory Health Insurance. That is what you're obligated to pay in a national healthcare system like in Britain, Sweden or Italy, or in a single-payer system as in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, BENELUX, Denmark, Norway et al.
VHI is the term used for Voluntary Health Insurance (PHI -- Private Health Insurance sometimes used).
VHI comes in three varieties: Substitutive, Complementary and Supplemental.
Substitutive: Effectively Opt-Out health plans. The Netherlands, Germany, et al allow people with certain levels of income to opt-out of the Statutory Health Insurance plan and pay for your own.
Why would anyone even consider doing that?
Well, maybe all of you should take a seat.....
In contrast to the Dutch system pre-2006 where the top 30 percent of the population was not permitted to be covered by the statutory scheme, in Germany those earning above €48,000 per year may choose to opt out and either buy private insurance or self insure. The reader who is wondering why an individual in Germany may choose private health insurance needs to understand that for a healthy single individual it is often cheaper to be in the private health insurance plan than to contribute to the social health insurance system (Greβ, 2007). There may also be non-financial incentives for individuals to move to private insurance as the range of services covered by private insurance may be more comprehensive and may include drugs or treatments not covered by social health insurance plans.
[font=Verdana]
Oh, yes, indeed, that would be more of those facts from a singularly outmoded source of information that never comes from nationally or internationally published figures that seem to get in the way of rational debate.
I posted that earlier in the thread......not one person even attempted to debunk or refute...but then the truth cannot be debunked or refuted.
I read the original study in German, but later found an English version, so double dumbass on me, not that it really matters...
For those who don't already know, the Netherlands is located in Outer Space, so this would be a universally published figure, according to certain people.
Oh wait, I messed that up.....the Netherlands is floating around in the Milky Way Galaxy, so that would mean the source is a galactically published figure. If the Netherlands would be drifting around the Andromeda Galaxy, then it would be a universally published figure....or no, uh, inter-galactic. Never mind.
It was Dr. Colleen M. Flood, Canada Research Chair in Health Law & Policy, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto and Scientific Director, CIHR Institute of Health Services and Policy Research that did cited
Greβ and I had to follow up on her work to make sure it was kosher.
Dr Flood is another one of those....
...singularly outmoded sources, and not that the University of Toronto...
[font=Verdana]
...is floating around in Outer Space just like the Netherlands, since it is neither nationally or internationally known, recognized or published.
So, private insurance is often cheaper than State-sponsored insurance -- imagine that.
Why get Complimentary VHI?
So that you can be insured to cover medical services, procedures and treatment plans -- including pharmaceutical drugs -- that are not included in the State plan.
Austria: Medically necessary, sufficient, appropriate (see General Social Insurance Act (ASVG), §133[2])
Belgium : Medical necessity, activity, cost effectiveness, safety (by Royal Decree)
France : Inscription of new medical and surgical procedures after advice of ANAES on efficacy and safety
Germany : Medically necessary, effective, cost effective (see Social Code Book (SGB) V, §135[1])
Luxembourg :
Sufficient, appropriate (see Code des assurances sociales, art. 17,1)
or
Medically necessary, effective, efficient (see Code des assurances sociales, art. 23,1)
Netherlands : Medically necessary (see Sickness Fund Act (ZFW), preamble)
Switzerland : Effective, appropriate, cost-efficient (see Swiss Insurance Law (KVG), §32)
The UK also has similar criteria....
"Appropriateness criteria govern when and for whom a treatment or service included in the benefits package is funded. Appropriateness criteria may entail clinical criteria that a patient has to meet before a given treatment is deemed appropriate and therefore funded."
I posted that previously, too, and no one refuted it, because the truth cannot be refuted....and the truth hurts worse than Obamacare does.
So, what do they cover? It runs the gamut. As best as I can tell, no two Euro-States are even remotely similar in what the cover with respect to medical care, medical procedures, medical treatments or pharmaceuticals.
Basic medical care? That's vague and ambiguous -- each Euro-State defines it, but none define it the same.
Complimentary VHI also covers statutory costs and payments in many countries. That would be akin to having health insurance for health care co-payments or health care deductibles.
Imagine having a $15 doctor office visit co-pay, and then getting insurance to pay the $15 co-pay... Americans would be all over that, and then demand that someone else pay their insurance to pay the co-pay for their health insurance.
Supplementary VHI is used to get faster access to doctors and hospitals, especially to specialists, and to get bennies like semi-private rooms and private rooms.
This is one of the Great Disconnects between Americans and the rest of the world.
Americans stupidly think the rest of the world gets the same level of care they do, complete with all of the bennies, which include private rooms, jacuzzi, cable/satellite TV, on-demand movies, on-demand dining and Feng Sui...
The Christ Hospital
2139 Auburn Ave.
513-585-2000
thechristhospital.com
* Additional Features: All-private birthing suites and post-partum rooms; feng sui and hydrotherapy birthing suites; nursing staff with an average 20 years experience; new interactive TV system; dine-on-demand room service; updated infant security system; no restrictions on visitation hours (some limitations may be in place during flu season); neonatologists on call 24 hours; Special Care Nursery with individualized bed space that can be personalized
Atrium Medical Center’s Family Birth Center
1 Medical Center Dr., Middletown
513-424-2111
atriummedcenter.org
* Children permitted in delivery room with mother’s approval. Additional Features: Board-certified doctors and nurses experienced in obstetrics, neonatal care, including nursery and fetal monitoring. Contemporary birthing suites include flat-screen TVs,On-Demand movies and bathrooms with showers and jet tubs. Babies may stay in nursery or “room” with mom; fold-out sofas for overnight guests. Prenatal services and childbirth education classes available.
You see....you don't get that in Europe or anywhere else.
American health care is just like their 4,400 square foot McMansion Start Castles.
And by the way.....Flood....she's discussing the Chaoulli case, where the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that a regulation banning private health insurance for medically necessary care to be unconstitutional.
Simple story....
Province of Quebec bans private health insurance. Someone need medical treatment for medically necessary care and was denied treatment, so the person (Chaoulli) bought private insurance anyway and tried to use it to get the medical treatment they needed.
Perhaps you should all be sitting down, because these are the exclusions permitted for VHI/PHI
Austria
Individual: pre-existing conditions usually excluded (but not from group policies);
insurers cannot reject applications but may charge higher premiums and/or introduce
cost-sharing arrangements for people with chronic illnesses
Belgium
Mutual: psychiatric and long-term care (lump sum)
Mutual: psychiatric care (co-payment)
Commercial: pre-existing conditions, infertility treatment, sporting injuries
Denmark
Pre-existing conditions
Note: Denmark does not cover abortions past the 12th week of pregnancy, unless the Minister of Justice has granted permission.
Think that will fly in the US?
The Minister of Justice only grants permission to save the life of the mother, or prevent additional physical damage to the mother, or in the case it is known the infant has birth defects (euthanasia).
Think that would fly in the US?
Finland
Pregnancy and childbirth, infertility treatment, alcoholism, herbal remedies, treatment covered by statutory health insurance
France
Excluding any disease is forbidden by law, although it can be authorized in individual policies under certain conditions: the disease has to be clearly stated and the insurer has to prove that the patient had the disease before purchasing the policy
Germany
Pre-existing conditions are excluded if they were known at the time of underwriting and were not disclosed by the insured; declared pre-existing conditions are covered but generally result in higher premiums
Greece
Pre-existing conditions
Ireland
Open enrolment
Italy
Individual: pre-existing conditions, chronic and recurrent diseases, mental illness, alcohol and drug addiction, cosmetic surgery, war risks, injuries arising from insurrection, natural disasters etc; also often excludes dental care not caused by accident/illness
Group: pre-existing conditions such as diabetes, drug and alcohol addiction, HIV/AIDS, severe mental health problems such as schizophrenia, voluntary termination of pregnancy and war risks
Luxembourg
Mutual: open enrollment (but no cover for treatment excluded from Statutory Health Insurance)
Commercial: pre-existing conditions
Netherlands
Some dental plans may require people to have their teeth restored before acceptance
Portugal
Individual: pre-existing conditions, long-term chronic illnesses (such as diabetes, multiple sclerosis and asthma), HIV/AIDS, haemodialysis, self-inflicted injuries, psychiatric treatments, check-ups, dental care, outpatient drugs, alternative medicine and non-evidence based treatment; dental care, delivery costs and outpatient drugs are only covered by the most expensive policies
Spain
HIV/AIDS, alcoholism and drug addiction, dental care (often available for a supplementary premium), prosthesis, infertility treatment, orthopaedics etc; some insurers do not have general restrictions but may reject certain conditions; most insurers offer extra benefits for a supplementary premium eg organ transplants, second opinion, family planning, assistance during trips, treatment abroad, certain prosthesis; only one insurer offers homeopathy or spa treatment
Sweden
Emergency care, long-term care, HIV/AIDS, some other communicable diseases, diseases and injuries as a result of the use of alcohol or other intoxicating substances, pre-natal care, child birth (normal or with complications), termination of pregnancy, infertility treatment, vaccinations
UK
Pre-existing conditions, GP services, accident and emergency admission, long-term chronic illnesses such as diabetes, multiple sclerosis and asthma, drug abuse, selfinflicted injuries, outpatient drugs and dressings, HIV/AIDS, infertility, normal pregnancy and child birth, cosmetic surgery, gender reassignment, preventive treatment, kidney dialysis, mobility aids, experimental treatment and drugs, organ transplants, war risks and injuries arising from hazardous pursuits
That is more singularly outmoded information from the World Health Organization's European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies Spring 2004, Volume 6, Number 1 (no copyright restrictions), which I've posted before and some people apparently believe the WHO is floating on an asteroid out in Space.
I'm guessing some people have a lot to learn. Supplementing...
I posted it early on in the thread, you can find the link for the whole show there. It's a detailed look at where our money goes compared to other countries in regards to our healthcare from PBS. It also shows what we do well with our money and what we do poorly with it when it comes to our healthcare system from there studies and research. It was really interesting, it compares two hospitals. It claims we spend two and a half times more than most developed nations. The cost of living in other countries usually exceeds our own but, not in healthcare. The question to me is, why? Some Americans receive better care but the majority don't. There is also a lot of waste and unneeded testing. Tests that in fact do more harm than good when it comes to our health but pay more into the systems profits.
It's not a good idea for our wallets nor our health, IMO of course. Recently they've upped the age on mammography because of these studies. But, doctors still write scrips when you don't need it. We are so use to it, we actually disregard the studies telling us it's not good for us. I wonder why we do this?
If we didn't waste so much so money on this kind of thing we could probably afford our current system. What do you think about what they say and why don't you think it's a good idea in our country to cut waste? Or do you think it's a good idea?
Thanks
Last edited by PoppySead; 01-24-2013 at 11:05 PM..
you would have to say either most of the population or a greater percentage. even my relatives stories tells me that not all are happy with the NHS in england.
Most people are happy and would never swap the NHS for a US-style system. We spend a fraction on healthcare compared to the US, for better results. But don't take my word for it:
I think we have a national; heathcare in Oabmacare. Not a one payer but that failed when Bill CVlinton was president because they could score it reveniue nuteral by senate rules. There now is no way they are going to change Obama care with all the expense and time of getti g it in place.Even then one payers is totally out because of the deficit we are facing in comin=g deacdes;we have started to pay really.No way will you find the entire US willig to pay the cost that would be spread thru out on many fees and taxes it would cost to pay for one payers. Some thig it free except for some people but its not.
But, doctors still write scrips when you don't need it. We are so use to it, we actually disregard the studies telling us it's not good for us
The big problem is not addressing the true health issues. For example, a doctor gives a high blood pressure prescription to a patient with high blood pressure because the patient is overweight. To address the root cause of the high blood pressure, the patient should lose weight and not just keep popping high blood pressure pills.
Personally, I don't care if the whole country gets free healthcare.
Just don't force me to use it and don't raise my taxes to pay for it.
That would require separating yourself from the country as a whole.
Where will you move to?
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