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The big political problem with proposals for Universal Health Care in the US is the Universal part. Too many of us believe that health care or insurance is something you either earn or inherit and that it is a reward for your hard work. The corollary is if you don't have it you must have not worked hard enough or been disinherited for some reason. People without the ability to insure or pay for health care simply do not deserve any. I believe that this sense of superiority for the people with good insurance is a major factor in preventing a rational dialog on this topic.
A major part of my Liberalism is I believe there are some things a person should have regardless of whether they deserve them or not. These include food, shelter, cloths and health care. These do not include multimillion dollar inheritances, fancy cars, and vacation houses in paradise and, most importantly, enough money to purchase political favors and government supported monopolies. Even if these people were lucky and worked hard they should not have excess until everyone has the basics including access to good health care.
The big political problem with proposals for Universal Health Care in the US is the Universal part. Too many of us believe that health care or insurance is something you either earn or inherit and that it is a reward for your hard work. The corollary is if you don't have it you must have not worked hard enough or been disinherited for some reason. People without the ability to insure or pay for health care simply do not deserve any. I believe that this sense of superiority for the people with good insurance is a major factor in preventing a rational dialog on this topic.
As many here know, I fully support a single payer health insurance system. I think the Canadians have the model that is mostly likely to work in this country. As one poster recently pointed out, the best way to get single payer health insurance would simply be to expand Medicare to cover all ages.
In response to your paragraph above though, I think this is the crux of it. I'm starting to believe there are some differences between Americans and people of other countries that are subtle, but quite significant. The problem with creating a good health care system for everyone is that large percentages of our population don't really want that when it comes down to it. Our national "mindset" is just different than many others. I think this stands in our way of demanding that our politicians give us a better health care system than the one we have.
A large percentage of Americans will want "something better" for themselves than *whatever* you create for everyone. It doesn't even matter how good the care for the average person is. That's not the point. The point is that they have been conditioned to accept inequality. Inequality helps reinforce their view that they are better and smarter than other people are. This, in their minds, makes them more deserving, whether we are talking about health care, a new car, or a big screen television.
My wife states it more crudely. She sometimes uses the phrase "Jam you Jack, I got mine" to describe some of the attitudes she sees among other Americans.
I don't think that attitude is very prevalent in either Canada, the United Kingdom, or most of the European countries. Canada's founding motto was "Peace, Order, and Good Government". In France, the founders spoke of "Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity". In America, on the other hand, the focus is mostly on "Liberty" which, roughly defined, means each individual should be allowed to do as he pleases.
Individual Liberty is fine. However, the point is that its not the ONLY value in society. Other values ought to include care for the less fortunate, a safety net which we don't allow people to fall below, and a measure of equality when it comes to the most essential things in life (among which I include medical care).
I hope we Americans can figure our way out of this mess. It doesn't say much for us that Britain, Canada, the European Countries, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and even Taiwan, have now implemented universal health care and we can't do it even though we vastly outspend those countries on medical services. Some of us will keep fighting the fight. I'm losing my optimism and a lot of it has to do with the prevalence of stupid, uninformed, and purely ignorant attitudes that are prevalent in many parts of this country.
In 2009 and 2010, the United States had the most left wing Democratic government it is was probably ever going to get in the near future. A Democrat president who had the most liberal voting record of all 100 senators when he was in the senate, an overwhelmingly Democratic house and a Democratic control filibuster proof majority Senate for the first time in 30 years.
That government had the votes if they wanted, and 2 years of opportunity, to expand Medicare to everyone and they didn't do it. Maybe because they thought the American people really didn't want that. As it was, they barely passed by a few votes the so mish mash they did get, and it got no Republican votes.
I know a lot of liberals wish the US would just be like Europe in most ways: government controlled health coverage , ban guns , ban the death penalty etc etc and maybe some day all those thing will happen, but it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.
For now, the US and Europe are still very different , like a cat and a dog, and wanting them to be the same isn't going to make it so.
In 2009 and 2010, the United States had the most left wing Democratic government it is was probably ever going to get in the near future. A Democrat president who had the most liberal voting record of all 100 senators when he was in the senate, an overwhelmingly Democratic house and a Democratic control filibuster proof majority Senate for the first time in 30 years.
That government had the votes if they wanted, and 2 years of opportunity, to expand Medicare to everyone and they didn't do it. Maybe because they thought the American people really didn't want that. As it was, they barely passed by a few votes the so mish mash they did get, and it got no Republican votes.
I know a lot of liberals wish the US would just be like Europe in most ways: government controlled health coverage , ban guns , ban the death penalty etc etc and maybe some day all those thing will happen, but it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.
For now, the US and Europe are still very different , like a cat and a dog, and wanting them to be the same isn't going to make it so.
You may be right that the Dems couldn't fix health care. And why would that be? Because Dems, just like Republicans are subject to the lobbying efforts of the health industry. And who would be the most powerful lobbying industry in the United States? You got it, the health industry:
Quote:
Some may, therefore, be surprised to learn according to the database kept by OpenSecrets between Pharmaceutical and health product industry, hospital and nursing homes, health professionals and health services, HMOs, or more broadly Pharma/Healthcare/HMO, the total lobby dollars spent between 1998 and 2012 was a staggering $5.3 billion, or nearly three times greater than the second most generous industry: insurance, and well above Oil and Gas at $1.4 billion, and Securities and Investment at $1.0 billion. Is it becoming clearer why the US government has few qualms about unsustainable taxpayer funded healthcare spending, especially when there are so many current benefits accruing to the politicians who see so many billions in benefits from passing lobby-friendly laws now (by which we mean generous taxpayer funding, the bulk of which benefits the healthcare industry's bottom line)?
As for the costs: who cares - just dump them on future generations. It's not like anyone expects the $16.7 trillion in US debt to be ever repaid.
The next three highest lobbying groups don't combined equal what health care is putting into lobbying.
So politicians on the democratic side of the aisle made compromises to keep money flowing into their coffers.
And how do you think they can afford that lobbying effort? With increased charges for medical bills, of course. You may be too young to remember the time when drug companies were not allowed to advertise on television or when there were more non-profit health care operations than for profit. Health care was a lot less expensive until Nixon introduced "managed care". Your care may be managed, but what you are charged is not.
It is too expensive and too corrupt. The government gives away at least 60 billion a year now in Medicare fraud, not counting Medicaid fraud which most likely is a higher fraud ridden program.
The reality is that our government is not good at fixing social problems. Look at the failure of the Great Society programs. Some 7 trillion dollars or more taken from productive members of society and given to non-productive members of society and have higher poverty rates than before we started the Great Society programs.
Most solutions to difficult problems are simple. Many people can't afford medical insurance. They don't have the job skills or education to get a decent job that either provides affordable medical insurance or pays them a very good salary that allows them to pay for it out of their own pocket. Until we fix that problem, "Single Payer" or Socialized Medical Insurance will fail.
It's not individuals--it's the health care industry
Quote:
Originally Posted by totsuka
It is too expensive and too corrupt. The government gives away at least 60 billion a year now in Medicare fraud, not counting Medicaid fraud which most likely is a higher fraud ridden program.
The reality is that our government is not good at fixing social problems. Look at the failure of the Great Society programs. Some 7 trillion dollars or more taken from productive members of society and given to non-productive members of society and have higher poverty rates than before we started the Great Society programs.
Most solutions to difficult problems are simple. Many people can't afford medical insurance. They don't have the job skills or education to get a decent job that either provides affordable medical insurance or pays them a very good salary that allows them to pay for it out of their own pocket. Until we fix that problem, "Single Payer" or Socialized Medical Insurance will fail.
Everyone seems to think of individuals when it comes to health care fraud. It's not. Roughly 80% of all fraud comes from health insurance providers.
Quote:
The report also estimates that 80% of the fraud is committed by providers,10% by consumers, and the remaining 10% by others such as insurers or their employees. It will take multiple systems to control all three.
A good IT system will help if there are enough skilled people to monitor the system but it will not eliminate the problem.
You can't eliminate it without hiring "police" of sorts to catch them. Which we won't do because it costs money--presumably more than the $60 billion you guess is being stolen.
Quote:
Federal authorities have come to see the healthcare industry as among the most corrupt sectors of the U.S. economy and estimates of losses to Medicare and Medicaid fraud run into the tens of billions. The corruption runs deep and keeps appearing in new areas of healthcare. As U.S. Attorney Wifredo A. Ferrer of the Southern District of Florida stated,
“Health care fraud has evolved from DME fraud, to infusion fraud, to home health care fraud, and now, as this case shows, to community mental health treatment fraud. Worse yet, health care fraud has come to permeate every level of the health care industry, from the owners and managers of dirty clinics, to complicit doctors, program directors, therapists, marketers, and patient recruiters.
It is hard to speculate about the motives of the doctors involved, or the other well-educated professionals who orchestrate these schemes. These are people who already have much more opportunity and income than most Americans, and now face jail time on felony charges. Yet as I argued in The Cheating Culture, the criminality of doctors may not be so surprising after all. Many people enter this profession hoping for significant financial rewards, only to find that their pay doesn't exactly buy an opulent lifestyle and that their days entail much drudgery in dealing with insurers. When the chance of easy money comes along, quite a few doctors it seems are ready to pounce.
The Obama administration has caught more thieves of medicare/medicaid than any other presidency.
Quote:
According to an authoritative study by Public Citizen, the government has settled 80 cases with pharmaceutical companies accused of overcharging public healthcare programs since 1991, with most of those settlements in recent years. All told, these companies have paid $2.3 billion penalties in such cases -- and many billions more to settle other charges. This crackdown on Big Pharma started during the Bush years, but the Obama Administration has ramped up the pressure.
We need a single payer system. We can hire plenty of people from the defunct insurance companies to monitor a single payer system while saving ourselves tens of billions of dollars in the cost of so-called "legitimate" health care claims.
It's not that an occasional individual doesn't cheat medicare, it's just that individual cheaters who are non-health care professionals, simply don't have the expertise to pull millions out of the system. Most likely they are looking to be treated for a single sickness. Something they wouldn't be doing if we provided health care to all through a single payer, national heath care system.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 04-27-2013 at 10:32 AM..
Reason: formatting
In 2009 and 2010, the United States had the most left wing Democratic government it is was probably ever going to get in the near future. A Democrat president who had the most liberal voting record of all 100 senators when he was in the senate, an overwhelmingly Democratic house and a Democratic control filibuster proof majority Senate for the first time in 30 years.
That government had the votes if they wanted, and 2 years of opportunity, to expand Medicare to everyone and they didn't do it. Maybe because they thought the American people really didn't want that. As it was, they barely passed by a few votes the so mish mash they did get, and it got no Republican votes.
I know a lot of liberals wish the US would just be like Europe in most ways: government controlled health coverage , ban guns , ban the death penalty etc etc and maybe some day all those thing will happen, but it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.
For now, the US and Europe are still very different , like a cat and a dog, and wanting them to be the same isn't going to make it so.
Yeah, I've pretty much given up hope on this issue. lol It would be nice if the idea that the Republican pundit in the article I previously posted would take hold in the Republican party: that the Republicans should push single payer just to rally up more support and defeat Democrats. It seems to me that Republicans are more ruthless and stubborn once they take a position. I know I'd vote Republican over this single issue just because on most things that matter to be, the Democrats and Republicans are essentially the same.
Man, my SO just got a hospital bill today. He went to the emergency room because he had severe abdominal cramps during a weekend. They did a CT scan and told him nothing was wrong with him and sent him home with a prescription for pain killers. So basically, they did nothing. They changed his insurance $10K for this!! And now he has to pay $2K of that. Insane.
I watched the video of the American who has lived in England many years, and gave his opinion of the NHS.
It was truthful and accurate. Like he said, some of the buildings at some of the hospitals are quite old, but the equipment in them is top notch.
Nothing is perfect, but the NHS and the doctors and nurses who work in it, strive to do their best for their patients.
I've no doubt the doctors, nurses, and hospitals and treatment in the US is probably among the best, if not the best in the world. But what good is that, if a large part of the population can't afford to use it?
Lung cancer treatment waiting times and tumour growth.
Therefore, 21% of potentially curable patients became incurable on the waiting list.
This study demonstrates that, even for the select minority of patients who have specialist referral and are deemed suitable for potentially curative treatment, the outcome is prejudiced by waiting times that allow tumour progression.
I'm wondering why that wasn't covered in the video, or this....
Delay, Denial and Dilution: The Impact of NHS Rationing on Heart Disease and Cancer
IEA Health and Welfare Unit (London)
12% of kidney specialists in the UK said they had refused to treat patients due to limited resources (same source).
One study showed that patients accepted for dialysis stacked up this way.....
65 patients per million population UK
98 patients per million population in Canada
212 patients per million population in the US
If health care truly is less expensive in Britain, then why are there waiting lists and why do people die?
Should America give in to a National Healthcare system like Germany, Sweden, Thailand, England, or Japan?
Do you think it's time to take profit out of our healthcare system?
We are unique in the profit we allow others to make off people through our healthcare needs. Do you think it will last for the long haul? We go broke from medical bills unlike other people in other countries.
Other countries rely on making their profits from the U.S. in regards to prescription drugs because their countries have limits set on price but we do not. Do you think that's fair for Americans to pick up the slack financially?
Do you feel paying more makes us better or stupid? People in other countries fair as well with health without going into medical bankruptcy, do you think we should still put a price on our health? Or should we adopt the same as others and have limits to how much the medical companies can make off our medical needs?
I realize this is a political leaning discussion but I'd like to know what you think individually, without left or right leaning input. What do you truly think as an individual paying for your healthcare. Do you think what we have now, a for profit system, is working for the people of this country? Or do you think we need to limit the profit that can be made off our health? Do you like the fact that other countries come sell higher here for the same medicine to make their money? Is that ok with you? We are after all a free market.
And lastly, do you feel it sets up a strange dynamic within our country? Do you think having healthcare depend on your ability to make enough money to survive medical incident without going broke make us more distant and group in odd ways socially in our country? From medicare to welfare, do you think it sets us apart in how we communicate equally because money buys our health? Do you think fear is logical in regards to not receiving care or do you like that the poor have a label of welfare recipient? Do you like the divide?
Just wondering how everyone is feeling about this currently now that a few things have changed in regards to our healthcare. Do you think Obamacare will fix things or not? Do you think he did to much or to little?
Thanks On a personal note I am unsure in a direction at this point. I would like a change but I am unsure at what kind of change. I would like a non profit, it seems odd to me to profit from healthcare as a country, especially when other countries take advantage of our for profit medical system.
In the past 20 years I doubt that I have paid $50 for "health care" why? Because I know how to be responsible for my own medical issues. People are so dependent upon a broken medical system it is pathetic. Let them pay. Just leave me alone. I dont' want anything to do with it.
20rysinBranson
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You may be right--but why?
David Callahan
On a personal note I am unsure in a direction at this point. I would like a change but I am unsure at what kind of change. I would like a non profit, it seems odd to me to profit from healthcare as a country, especially when other countries take advantage of our for profit medical system.
