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Old 12-15-2012, 02:46 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,444,381 times
Reputation: 14266

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This is a very straightforward inquiry. All I want is for someone to give me a well-reasoned and evidenced explanation as to why this chart looks the way it does with respect to the USA.



This compares the United States to other developed nations, which is the appropriate comparison, not to nations that have civil unrest or semi-functional/poorly developed social systems. There are nations that have higher rates of gun violence than we do, including Mexico and Brazil. But if you want to include them, go ahead - still, look at how many nations are to the left on the chart.

As you prepare your answer, note several things:

1. Crime in the USA has been on a downward trend, but even so, you can look at any data source on any website, and you will find clear, unmistakeable evidence that tells you that the USA as a huge statistical outlier in the developed world terms of gun deaths. And we've developed a world-wide reputation for the kinds of gun massacres that occurred yesterday.

2. Notice Switzerland, Finland, and Israel on the chart - they all have relatively widespread gun ownership but much lower homicide rates. They also have much tighter gun control laws than we do.

3. Notice, too, that these are many of the "liberal lifestyle" countries that are oftentimes derided for implementing "socialism."

4. The USA is among the top most heavily armed, if not the most heavily armed, nations on the planet. If more guns are the differentiating factor to make us safer, then we should be among the safest countries on the left-hand side of the chart, along with Switzerland, Finland, Israel, and all of the other nations off to the right with increasing bar sizes.

5. Finally, note that the USA has much more liberal gun control laws than all of these nations.


But let's play devil's advocate and start with the premise that gun control is not the primary differentiating factor that explains this chart. Let's be open to other explanations. What other rational, evidence-based reasons are there as to why this chart looks the way it does? Serious answers are appreciated.

Last edited by ambient; 12-15-2012 at 02:59 PM..
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:01 PM
 
10,854 posts, read 9,297,399 times
Reputation: 3122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
This is a very straightforward inquiry. All I want is for someone to give me a well-reasoned and evidenced explanation as to why this chart looks the way it does with respect to the USA.



This compares the United States to other developed nations, which is the appropriate comparison, not to nations that have civil unrest or semi-functional/poorly developed social systems. There are nations that have higher rates of gun violence than we do, including Mexico and Brazil. But if you want to include them, go ahead - still, look at how many nations are to the left on the chart.

As you prepare your answer, note several things:

1. Crime in the USA has been on a downward trend, but even so, you can look at any data source on any website, and you will find clear, unmistakeable evidence that tells you that the USA as a huge statistical outlier in the developed world terms of gun deaths. And we've developed a world-wide reputation for the kinds of gun massacres that occurred yesterday.

2. Notice Switzerland, Finland, and Israel on the chart - they all have relatively widespread gun ownership but much lower homicide rates. They also have much tighter gun control laws than we do.

3. Notice, too, that these are many of the "liberal" countries that are oftentimes derided for implementing "socialism."

4. The USA is among the top most heavily armed, if not the most heavily armed, nations on the planet. If more guns are the differentiating factor to make us safer, then we should be among the safest countries on the left-hand side of the chart, along with Switzerland, Finland, Israel, and all of the other nations off to the right with increasing bar sizes.

5. Finally, note that the USA has much more liberal gun control laws than all of these nations.


But let's play devil's advocate and start with the premise that gun control is not the primary differentiating factor that explains this chart. Let's be open to other explanations. What other rational, evidence-based reasons are there as to why this chart looks the way it does? Serious answers are appreciated.
Gun violence is a deeply embedded part of American history. How did America get its freedom, with guns. How did America defeat the Indians, with guns.

While most people may thing of guns as a form of personal protection and for hunting. There have always been those Americans who have sought to resolve problems and disputes with guns.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:03 PM
 
1,970 posts, read 1,760,748 times
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First of all, our country is so much larger than any of those other countries. That in itself makes your argument silly and unusable.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:04 PM
 
25,619 posts, read 36,677,590 times
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Answer: Great Society reforms and Cult of Personality.

And yet millions of people flock to get into this country every year. Huh imagine that.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:06 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,982 posts, read 10,456,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogdad View Post
Answer: Great Society reforms and Cult of Personality.

And yet millions of people flock to get into this country every year. Huh imagine that.
So why have gun murder rates been declining lately, along with gun ownership rates?
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:07 PM
 
25,619 posts, read 36,677,590 times
Reputation: 23295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORebelWoman View Post
First of all, our country is so much larger than any of those other countries. That in itself makes your argument silly and unusable.
Not applicable. Statistically, meaning percentages, we have the most gun deaths of all First World Countries.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:07 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,982 posts, read 10,456,602 times
Reputation: 5752
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORebelWoman View Post
First of all, our country is so much larger than any of those other countries. That in itself makes your argument silly and unusable.
The chart depicts gun homicide rates per capita, not in terms of raw numbers.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:07 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,444,381 times
Reputation: 14266
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORebelWoman View Post
First of all, our country is so much larger than any of those other countries. That in itself makes your argument silly and unusable.
You did not do well in your statistics class, I take it... This is why the homicide data is normalized per 100,000 people. It's a rate, not an absolute number. Try again.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:09 PM
 
25,619 posts, read 36,677,590 times
Reputation: 23295
Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
So why have gun murder rates been declining lately, along with gun ownership rates?
Trigger finger fatigue.

Incarceration rates. Ever take a look at that one.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:09 PM
 
Location: New Hampshire
4,866 posts, read 5,676,147 times
Reputation: 3786
Culture. Not the guns itself.

What do you expect from a country whose government goes around the world doing as it pleases and killing millions of innocent people and children in the process?

Yet the same government wants to tell me what kind of guns I can buy.

Hypocrites.
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