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Why are Southerners so obsessed with flying the "Stars & Bars" in the first place? You guys lost the Civil War, remember? The Confederate flag represents your failure.
This is such a narrow, biased view.
The most deadly war America has ever fought in was the Civil War. Most people in the south today would have some relative or another that fought in the Civil War(whether they know it or not).
If the colonies lost the war with Britain, and the descendants of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, etc. Were flying the original American flag as a way to remember both history of this country, and their relatives. Would you still object?
I know people want to demonize the south when it comes to the Civil War. And while the south was certainly imperfect. If you think Lincolns north was anything to admire, you have a complete misunderstanding of history.
The truth is, if Lincoln and his generals fought the same kind of war today as they did during the Civil War. They would be tried as war criminals. They operated on a system of total war. Sherman destroyed everything as he marched his army through the south. He burned farms, homes, destroyed railroads, bridges, communications lines, everything. Basically he turned much of Georgia into a deserted wasteland. As most understand, he burned Atlanta. Later his army would really destroy South Carolina, especially Columbia. Which they blamed for causing the war to begin with.
The truth is, Lincoln wasn't overly interested in actually freeing the slaves. Freeing the slaves had nothing to do with caring for the slaves. But rather, the country was being torn apart by the slave question, and Lincoln believed the only way to keep the union together, would be to end the fight over slavery once and for all. And the best solution towards the end of the war, was to take a position of completely abolishing slavery.
But you have to understand, he knew that blacks would be a contentious issue even after freed. And the way he hoped to solve the slavery issue, was not only to abolish slavery, but to export all of the slaves out of the country. In his mind, that would solve all the divisive issues in this country, which was causing the disunion to begin with.
The problem Lincoln faced was, the issue wasn't really as black and white as people want to believe. It wasn't really an issue of north vs south, as to believe that all Northerners supported Lincoln and all Southerners supported the Confederacy. But rather, it was a complicated situation, where many northern states, especially states like Pennsylvania and the "Northwest states" of that time period. Weren't very loyal to the federal government. But were in a precarious position, somewhat like Maryland.
The problem Maryland had was, Washington DC was between Virginia and Maryland. Maryland was a traditional slave-state, and it would have seceded with the confederacy. Which is why Lincoln sent the military into legislature and arrested anyone believed to support secession. Because had Maryland seceded, Washington DC would have been basically in a foreign country.
The problem Lincoln faced was, the primary abolitionists were in the New England states. But many of the Midwestern states relied heavily on the Mississippi river for trade. And were not strong abolitionists. Many Midwestern states had threatened to secede from the federal union as well. To create a Midwestern bloc of states. Pennsylvania, especially Philadelphia had a very strong secessionist movement. Many Pennsylvanians hated New England, and had strong economic and political ties with Virginia and the south.
The problem Lincoln face was, there was basically disunion going in all directions. And he was trying to find a way to keep the country together. And the reason he arrested the legislature of Maryland, was because he couldn't lose Maryland. And then he arrested journalists and politicians in the north who were confederate sympathizers, obviously because he was afraid that those journalists and political figures were a threat to the union. Basically, because those were journalists who were critical of Lincoln, and the abuses of the federal government.
Had Lincoln not arrested all the people that he did. The whole country would have fallen apart in 1861. Probably into three or four different nations. Lincoln didn't want that.
So the question is, if you were Lincoln and you have a country whose regions don't particularly like each other. And it looks as if the whole country is going to fall apart. What do you do?
While I can understand the reality in this country in 1861. I still don't believe that I would have become a despot. I don't think I could have ordered my generals to wage total war on the southern states. I don't see why people are so obsessed with a forcing together people who don't want to be together.
The same thing happens today. If someone mentions Texas Seceding, you'll see people from the north talking about invading Texas, putting them in their place. Many times accompanied by a picture of Sherman's army burning Atlanta.
Anyway, I think the misunderstanding about the south is really because people generally havn't been to the south. I mean, I'm from Oklahoma, but Oklahoma history is not really southern history. It wasn't till I spent some time in Georgia, hearing about "The war of northern aggression". That I ever started looking into it.
Most people just read what they teach in schools. Which is a pretty clear-cut, war over slavery, the south needed to lose because slavery is immoral. And Lincoln was the great emancipator of blacks, a great and honorable man. But its simply not true.
A Central Texas school board is banning the Confederate battle flag from district property and district-sponsored events.
Hays board members voted 5-2 Monday to amend the student code of conduct to ban the flag, which was formerly displayed with the Hays High School Rebel mascot. The ban also covers any imagery deemed to be racially hostile, offensive or intolerant.
The most deadly war America has ever fought in was the Civil War. Most people in the south today would have some relative or another that fought in the Civil War(whether they know it or not).
If the colonies lost the war with Britain, and the descendants of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, etc. Were flying the original American flag as a way to remember both history of this country, and their relatives. Would you still object?
I know people want to demonize the south when it comes to the Civil War. And while the south was certainly imperfect. If you think Lincolns north was anything to admire, you have a complete misunderstanding of history.
The truth is, if Lincoln and his generals fought the same kind of war today as they did during the Civil War. They would be tried as war criminals. They operated on a system of total war. Sherman destroyed everything as he marched his army through the south. He burned farms, homes, destroyed railroads, bridges, communications lines, everything. Basically he turned much of Georgia into a deserted wasteland. As most understand, he burned Atlanta. Later his army would really destroy South Carolina, especially Columbia. Which they blamed for causing the war to begin with.
The truth is, Lincoln wasn't overly interested in actually freeing the slaves. Freeing the slaves had nothing to do with caring for the slaves. But rather, the country was being torn apart by the slave question, and Lincoln believed the only way to keep the union together, would be to end the fight over slavery once and for all. And the best solution towards the end of the war, was to take a position of completely abolishing slavery.
But you have to understand, he knew that blacks would be a contentious issue even after freed. And the way he hoped to solve the slavery issue, was not only to abolish slavery, but to export all of the slaves out of the country. In his mind, that would solve all the divisive issues in this country, which was causing the disunion to begin with.
The problem Lincoln faced was, the issue wasn't really as black and white as people want to believe. It wasn't really an issue of north vs south, as to believe that all Northerners supported Lincoln and all Southerners supported the Confederacy. But rather, it was a complicated situation, where many northern states, especially states like Pennsylvania and the "Northwest states" of that time period. Weren't very loyal to the federal government. But were in a precarious position, somewhat like Maryland.
The problem Maryland had was, Washington DC was between Virginia and Maryland. Maryland was a traditional slave-state, and it would have seceded with the confederacy. Which is why Lincoln sent the military into legislature and arrested anyone believed to support secession. Because had Maryland seceded, Washington DC would have been basically in a foreign country.
The problem Lincoln faced was, the primary abolitionists were in the New England states. But many of the Midwestern states relied heavily on the Mississippi river for trade. And were not strong abolitionists. Many Midwestern states had threatened to secede from the federal union as well. To create a Midwestern bloc of states. Pennsylvania, especially Philadelphia had a very strong secessionist movement. Many Pennsylvanians hated New England, and had strong economic and political ties with Virginia and the south.
The problem Lincoln face was, there was basically disunion going in all directions. And he was trying to find a way to keep the country together. And the reason he arrested the legislature of Maryland, was because he couldn't lose Maryland. And then he arrested journalists and politicians in the north who were confederate sympathizers, obviously because he was afraid that those journalists and political figures were a threat to the union. Basically, because those were journalists who were critical of Lincoln, and the abuses of the federal government.
Had Lincoln not arrested all the people that he did. The whole country would have fallen apart in 1861. Probably into three or four different nations. Lincoln didn't want that.
So the question is, if you were Lincoln and you have a country whose regions don't particularly like each other. And it looks as if the whole country is going to fall apart. What do you do?
While I can understand the reality in this country in 1861. I still don't believe that I would have become a despot. I don't think I could have ordered my generals to wage total war on the southern states. I don't see why people are so obsessed with a forcing together people who don't want to be together.
The same thing happens today. If someone mentions Texas Seceding, you'll see people from the north talking about invading Texas, putting them in their place. Many times accompanied by a picture of Sherman's army burning Atlanta.
Anyway, I think the misunderstanding about the south is really because people generally havn't been to the south. I mean, I'm from Oklahoma, but Oklahoma history is not really southern history. It wasn't till I spent some time in Georgia, hearing about "The war of northern aggression". That I ever started looking into it.
Most people just read what they teach in schools. Which is a pretty clear-cut, war over slavery, the south needed to lose because slavery is immoral. And Lincoln was the great emancipator of blacks, a great and honorable man. But its simply not true.
Excellent post Sir, but you will not persuade them with facts.
Excellent post Sir, but you will not persuade them with facts.
BS. The only fact is that only people who like how that flag makes black people feel when we see it want it to still fly. Why cant racist be truthful ever. They always hide behind something else.
BS. The only fact is that only people who like how that flag makes black people feel when we see it want it to still fly. Why cant racist be truthful ever. They always hide behind something else.
A lot of good men died under the Nazi flag. Your not too bright are you?
I'm plenty bright. There's a difference between the agenda of the power elite, and the beliefs of the rank and file soldier. You're saying all German troops in WW II were evil? Hell were they all even Nazis?
Oh, you should probably learn to properly use 'you're' before questioning someone's intelligence.
My point is, Lincoln's position wasn't exactly the benevolent emancipator that he is made to be.
As for slavery. Blacks would have been freed regardless. It was just a matter of time. Anyone who thinks there would still be slavery today if it hadn't been for the Civil War, has no concept of history. Brazil had about six times as many slaves as the United States, and slavery simply ended there, no war, and not even much debate.
Practically every country in the western hemisphere had slavery, how many wars were fought to free the slaves?
The question in my mind is, I understand that we wanted to end slavery. Slavery was immoral. But there are bad things going on all around the world today. Would you sacrifice 650,000 Americans to convert the middle-east to democracy? Should we sacrifice 650,000 lives to end the violence in Africa?
That is a big number, 650,000. I don't think you realize how large a number it is.
Look, all Americans are basically the descendants of traitors. America was created out of treason. Whether or not you agree with the southern cause for secession, they saw themselves as freedom fighters. They were searching for independence. They loved George Washington, and believed the spirit of Washington is what guided the southern cause.
If Lincoln was so great, why is he so great?
His emancipation proclamation didn't free any slaves in the northern states. He believed blacks were inferior to whites. He killed 650,000 Americans in a senseless war. He wanted to free the slaves then deport them out of the country.
The real truth is, Lincoln was basically the first American dictator. He basically did everything a dictator would do. He locked up nearly the entire legislature of Maryland because they were going to pass legislation he didn't agree with. He locked confederate sympathizers and journalists in prison, with no right to a trial, just for questioning his war. He created out of thin air money, and then spent it, all without permission of the Congress. He waged a war against his own country. Which the only definition of treason in the constitution, is for a person who makes war with his own country. He instituted a draft, that was so unpopular, that it caused riots that killed hundreds of people in New York City. He ignored the constitution at every turn. And for what purpose? Supposedly in the name of saving the union.
What is a union? How can there be a union that is held together by force? A union held together by force is a contradiction of itself.
The United States of America, could also be written, the American Union. Because we were a union of states, not a single nation.
Even Alexander Hamilton talked about this dilemma at the ratification debates in New York....
So African Americans would've "eventually" been freed anyway, huh?
See, this is the sh*t I hate from Southern apologists.
White people walked off the damn boat and had freedom from day one. So why should African Americans have spent ONE SECOND longer in slavery than necessary? So that white folks could make their stupid point about "States Rights?"
This type of stuff is why I remain HIGHLY suspicious of southern white conservatives and don't trust them as far as I can throw them.
A Central Texas school board is banning the Confederate battle flag from district property and district-sponsored events.
Hays board members voted 5-2 Monday to amend the student code of conduct to ban the flag, which was formerly displayed with the Hays High School Rebel mascot. The ban also covers any imagery deemed to be racially hostile, offensive or intolerant.
So African Americans would've "eventually" been freed anyway, huh?
See, this is the sh*t I hate from Southern apologists.
White people walked off the damn boat and had freedom from day one. So why should African Americans have spent ONE SECOND longer in slavery than necessary? So that white folks could make their stupid point about "States Rights?"
This type of stuff is why I remain HIGHLY suspicious of southern white conservatives and don't trust them as far as I can throw them.
This is one of the very striking parts of the pro-Confederate arguments. They claim they disapprove of slavery, and that it should have been ended, but they never say how long they think the slaves should have waited for the eventual end of slavery.
By the same token they seem to take the view that the civil rights laws of the 1960's were unjustified and that eventually merchants, schools, government agencies, and the like would have come around to accepting blacks as customers without being forced. Again, no idea how long this was supposed to take.
I guess it's always easier to endure somebody else's suffering.
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