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Old 01-06-2013, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Volunteer State
1,243 posts, read 1,143,778 times
Reputation: 2159

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cometclear View Post
We also need to banish military recruiters, who rank somewhere below pimps and somewhere above used car salesmen on the morality scale, from our public high schools. I had no idea these creatures could have unfiltered access until I saw them at a local high school during lunch, free to unleash their BS on high school kids who have no parents present to provide some sort of buffer or voice of reason.
On that, we agree. Recruiters are not the most honest of people.

That's where we with experience come in. I have students come to me every year, asking me about recruitment info, comparing what they've been told with the reality myself and other veterans in my school experienced. The MCJROTC cadre in my school are probably the most honest and honorable of men I know - for jarheads - and they set these kids straight about tecruitment opportunities. Those of us from other branches fill in the gaps. I will NOT blow smoke up these kids' butts.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,616 posts, read 2,394,408 times
Reputation: 2416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Army Soldier View Post
What do you expect from un-patriotic cowards?
You mean like Major General Smedley Butler? At the time of his death in 1940 he was the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. His words, below.


I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Atlanta & NYC
6,616 posts, read 13,802,221 times
Reputation: 6663
No way in hell would I sign my life away to go fight pointless causes that don't even have any direct threat to America. My best friend joined the Marines and it really changed him. He has even said he gets extremely depressed sometimes knowing he has no freedom for 4 years.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
39,026 posts, read 51,082,683 times
Reputation: 28222
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymouseX View Post
As a vet and history buff I gotta point out that it has never been the military that protected us from tyranny.

It has always been the citizens. Whether citizens taking the fought to court or the streets. Or enlisting to fight. Its the citizens.

The fact that as a soldier you don't know that is... disturbing.
Actually it is the elites - the wealthy and educated - who are the defenders of democracy and liberty. The "citizens" would have us in chains in no time if they really held power.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Soldotna
2,256 posts, read 2,126,530 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Actually it is the elites - the wealthy and educated - who are the defenders of democracy and liberty. The "citizens" would have us in chains in no time if they really held power.
We aren't a democracy and the educated are still just citizens...
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
39,026 posts, read 51,082,683 times
Reputation: 28222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman71 View Post
My sympathies about your experiences. Seriously.

But those were yours. And while there are others that share similar experiences, there are those that have had more positive experiences - hence some of the posts on this board. I myself have talked to my oldest about service. While it's not my 1st choice for her, it is an option we have discussed.

Let's face it: military service isn't for everyone. It takes a certain personality and mindset - "a desire to live your life by a certain set of codes" - and some find, too late, that they won't find it in the military.

But others do. You shouldn't sour others' ideas based on your own experiences. Of course, it's hard not to when it's your own kids, so I understand.
I could separate the idea of military training from the purpose to which we have committed our soldiers. In my own case, the discipline and the conditions of my service changed me profoundly - not all of it bad. It made me a far more sober and mature person than I was the day I got drafted. But I also got a first hand look at a war in which tens of thousands of kids my age were slaughtered for no reason. There was no glory, no preserving our freedom crap in that reality. We sacrificed for nothing. Iran and Afghanistan were the same thing - just lives wasted in the name of corporate greed. So yes, I think military service helps kids to grow up, take responsibility for their lives, learn about their strengths and weaknesses of character and courage etc. But I simply can not countenance the idea of my children being injured or dying or even delaying their education and careers for Raytheon or Boeing or Exxon profits and that is all that the US military is about these days.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:32 PM
 
1,696 posts, read 4,340,390 times
Reputation: 3931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Army Soldier View Post
Oh yes they are!!!


You are a traitor to the uniform.
My original comments are on page 3 of this thread, #27.

As I said previously, anyone who contradicts the narcissistic culture of the military is shunned and ostracized, as exemplified above. Part of the culture is to tell military members how special they are. They dehumanize and traumatize you during training, and then build you back up by convincing you that you're some sort of special breed. When someone comes along and challenges or contradicts this idea of Specialness, the typical military member who has not come to grips with the reality of their trauma can't mentally handle it. This results in lashing out, calling people traitors, etc. The lie has to be maintained lest everyone see the emperor has no clothes.

My husband and others who've posted in this thread were recently in the military, were deployed in recent wars, and have a good understanding of the current / MODERN military. These people are trying to explain to you what their concerns are and how their recent experience differs from the image you paint in your OP. Given the fact that multiple veterans are expressing these same concerns to you, don't you think it is worth consideration instead of just brushing ALL of them off with ad hominem attacks like "you're all unpatriotic cowards and traitors!"? Isn't it possible that the military has changed quite a bit since you personally served? If you're just going to disrespect your fellow veterans, do you really care about vets or the young people you're encouraging to enlist? Or do you only care about people who agree with you?
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Florida
23,165 posts, read 26,122,269 times
Reputation: 27898
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9coach View Post
My original comments are on page 3 of this thread, #27.

As I said previously, anyone who contradicts the narcissistic culture of the military is shunned and ostracized, as exemplified above. Part of the culture is to tell military members how special they are. They dehumanize and traumatize you during training, and then build you back up by convincing you that you're some sort of special breed. When someone comes along and challenges or contradicts this idea of Specialness, the typical military member who has not come to grips with the reality of their trauma can't mentally handle it. This results in lashing out, calling people traitors, etc. The lie has to be maintained lest everyone see the emperor has no clothes.

My husband and others who've posted in this thread were recently in the military, were deployed in recent wars, and have a good understanding of the current / MODERN military. These people are trying to explain to you what their concerns are and how their recent experience differs from the image you paint in your OP. Given the fact that multiple veterans are expressing these same concerns to you, don't you think it is worth consideration instead of just brushing ALL of them off with ad hominem attacks like "you're all unpatriotic cowards and traitors!"? Isn't it possible that the military has changed quite a bit since you personally served? If you're just going to disrespect your fellow veterans, do you really care about vets or the young people you're encouraging to enlist? Or do you only care about people who agree with you?
There has to be some sympathy involved for people like the OP who, if they acknowledged the truths we are stating they would have to reassess the carefully built construct of their own feelings of self worth.
He did undergo the same conditioning that we are so opposed to.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:27 PM
 
5,719 posts, read 6,434,977 times
Reputation: 3646
We need to re-instate the draft. Abolishing the draft was the wrong message to take from the Vietnam War. It simply caused that mistake to be repeated in Iraq. If we had had a national draft and a tax increase to pay for Iraq there's no way the public would have tolerated it lasting 8 years.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:00 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,434,858 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
There has to be some sympathy involved for people like the OP who, if they acknowledged the truths we are stating they would have to reassess the carefully built construct of their own feelings of self worth.
He did undergo the same conditioning that we are so opposed to.
Yeah; but I take him for a senior now, and as such, he should long ago have realized all that training and mere talk of "pride" was targeted at a specific purpose and also realized that his type of "pride" is the very antithesis of the kinds of pride we desperately need in our youth of today.

Pride in a uniform, pride in a team, pride in a particular government party all have come to be known as the superficial kind of pride that loses it's patina when compared with pride in self worth or pride in a moral code that transcends the accomplishments of today but rather sets your foundation firmly in performing your life in an exemplary fashion, exempt from being merely the arrow in some financial interest's quiver.

He stood the watch and can be proud of that but so too can the person who never wore a uniform or carried a weapon but has lead a life of inspiration to others to further their education, work hard and steady to feed their family, offer a helping hand to another person trying hard and who has not asked for any help.

That kind of pride does not come automatically with the mere wearing of any uniform.
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