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Old 01-13-2013, 01:10 AM
 
420 posts, read 333,911 times
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Leviticus 27:1-7

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate a person to the Lord by giving the equivalent value, set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; for a female, set her value at thirty shekels; for a person between the ages of five and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels and of a female at ten shekels; for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver; for a person sixty years old or more, set the value of a male at fifteen shekels and of a female at ten shekels.

Apparently, males are worth more than females, to the Hebrew god, anyway.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:09 AM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,386,516 times
Reputation: 14266
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisv1220 View Post
I'm sure sooner or later, someone will say that some men beat and rape women. Which is a horrible, horrible thing. No question about it. I certainly don't deny that some men do horrible things to women.

But some women do horrible things to men, such as prevent men from seeing their kids through unfair divorce settlements, or kill a man's baby by having an abortion without consulting the man.

Furthermore, when a man does something awful to a woman, other men usually step in and defend the woman. Other men will often admonish a man who hits a woman quite harshly. Most fathers teach their sons that a real man never hits a woman. And rapists are so despised that even other prisoners hate them.
Perhaps you're unaware that women weren't even allowed to vote in this country until they demanded some rights.

In many other societies, women were also prevented from becoming educated, having careers, getting divorces, going out in public alone, or having equal access to judicial rights. Look at the Middle East...they're slaughtering women who go out and do things that the men don't allow.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:09 AM
 
6,326 posts, read 6,541,343 times
Reputation: 7457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
How do you know that property is a concept born of advanced civilizations? We know from written records that property goes back at least as far as the time of the Sumarians.
Sumarians were an advanced civilization, they had money, literacy, bureaucracy, army and public works.

Quote:
We also know that hunter gatherer, and neo-lithic people had objects of considerable import from high quality flint knapping and domesticated dogs among hunter gatherers to bronze weapons among neo-lithic peoples. We have no clue how they viewed these, they might have been considered very valuable property.
Yes, we do have a clue from modern anthropological studies of the primitive tribes. According to Charles Darwin, we trace our lineage to apes who know no concept of property. Yes, dominant male gorillas has his harem and he would beat crap out of anybody who would be caught in an act with his females. Does that constitute "ownership"? Bonobo apes don't have such restrictions, it's free for all love, chimpanzee males service every promiscuous chimpanzee female without staking his claim on a her. Human apes evolved in small bands consisting of male-female couples, a bond of "ownership" was essential for a man to defend and provide for the young (and his female).

Quote:
To say that it is a concept born of advanced civilization is idle speculation with no real evidence.
Property implies - laws, inheritance rules and enforcement. A gorilla "owns" his females up to a point when he's too weak to defend his claim against contenders. Should gorilla females be offended by gorilla social organization? Yes a neolithic person had personal items, but he had no property in our understanding.

Quote:
Secondly, history tends to imply recorded history. Thus why in pre-historic dynasties like the Xia are implied to be semi-mythical. Thus when I say history I tend to mean recorded history and not pre-history.
If so, many ethnic groups have no history as of 2013 since they don't have written language. Romans coexisted with multitudes of pre-historic tribes, so do we.

Quote:
Third. Ancient Roman women were 100% property. They were owned by their fathers and used for marriage alliances. That was how Caesar cemented his relationship with Pompey according to Plutarch.
Arranged marriages are still around. If a marriage is arranged, it doesn't mean that a woman is kicking and screaming about it (it could be a man who does just that), it doesn't turn a woman into a property. Besides, arranged marriages were reserved for the propertied Roman gentry. Urban masses needed no father approval to marry or to divorce. Roman attitudes were quite liberal. Yes, Roman traditional law authorized fathers (and husbands) to kill disobedient daughters and wives. But Jews still have a religious mandate to stone their unfaithful women. They don't do it. Neither urban Romans obeyed their ancient customs.

Quote:
I would argue that the more civilized a society is the more equal women are. If you want modern day proof of this all you need do is compare, anywhere in the west to Afghanistan.
You have very peculiar definition of "civilization" as in "Civilization = good". Afghanistan is as civilized as any Western Country in the sense of having law, central government, money, bureaucracy, army, ... More civilized society means more laws, more government, less traditions and customs. Being "civilized" says nothing about the kind of the laws. Ancient Romans were very civilized, but concept of equality of genders (or anybody else) simply didn't bother Romans. You like Western Laws, OK, but it has little to do with West being "more civilized"
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:22 AM
 
Location: Armsanta Sorad
5,648 posts, read 8,023,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Do you not consider men in America not allowing women to vote from 1777-1919 oppression?
I wouldn't consider that oppression at all.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Armsanta Sorad
5,648 posts, read 8,023,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Perhaps you're unaware that women weren't even allowed to vote in this country until they demanded some rights.

In many other societies, women were also prevented from becoming educated, having careers, getting divorces, going out in public alone, or having equal access to judicial rights. Look at the Middle East...they're slaughtering women who go out and do things that the men don't allow.
That really wasn't a bad thing. Society has slowly been headed downhill since they've become the majority of voters and most them vote for self-interests. So in other words, women want equality on their own terms.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,602 posts, read 26,213,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
Well that would most likely be because for most of history women and children were considered property.

Can you name someone who sold his wife?
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:23 AM
 
Location: The Brat Stop
8,347 posts, read 7,205,332 times
Reputation: 2279
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisv1220 View Post
Yahoo! Video Detail for The Myth of Women's Oppression

Outstanding video from Paul Elam at A Voice For Men.

I'm sick of being told how oppressive men are, when throughout most of history, men have died in wars and otherwise risked their lives trying to protect women and children.

Rather than being oppressed, the vast majority of women through the years have been pampered and catered to quite nicely. Guys, don't buy into the feminist myth of male oppression of women any longer. Watch this video to understand in greater detail.
There's no oppression of females at all.

http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticV...(National).pdf
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,602 posts, read 26,213,541 times
Reputation: 12628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
How do you know that property is a concept born of advanced civilizations? We know from written records that property goes back at least as far as the time of the Sumarians. We also know that hunter gatherer, and neo-lithic people had objects of considerable import from high quality flint knapping and domesticated dogs among hunter gatherers to bronze weapons among neo-lithic peoples. We have no clue how they viewed these, they might have been considered very valuable property. To say that it is a concept born of advanced civilization is idle speculation with no real evidence.

Secondly, history tends to imply recorded history. Thus why in pre-historic dynasties like the Xia are implied to be semi-mythical. Thus when I say history I tend to mean recorded history and not pre-history.

Third. Ancient Roman women were 100% property. They were owned by their fathers and used for marriage alliances. That was how Caesar cemented his relationship with Pompey according to Plutarch.

I would argue that the more civilized a society is the more equal women are. If you want modern day proof of this all you need do is compare, anywhere in the west to Afghanistan.


In America, women have become more equal.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:28 AM
 
Location: The Brat Stop
8,347 posts, read 7,205,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Can you name someone who sold his wife?
Maybe in Afghanistan but not in America. Black women were slaves long ago and oppressed.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,602 posts, read 26,213,541 times
Reputation: 12628
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Perhaps you're unaware that women weren't even allowed to vote in this country until they demanded some rights.

In many other societies, women were also prevented from becoming educated, having careers, getting divorces, going out in public alone, or having equal access to judicial rights. Look at the Middle East...they're slaughtering women who go out and do things that the men don't allow.





Women in America are a privileged sex.

What happened a hundred years ago in America or what is currently happening in the ME has nothing to do with female privilege in America today.
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