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Old 01-20-2013, 03:05 PM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,848,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
Outdoors.

If you want to reduce the occurrence of outdoor crime, how effective is it to argue for stronger indoor defenses?
That would be relevant if I argued that your guns should be bolted to your nightstand.

And some crime happens indoors. Better to reduce that than reduce none.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,701 posts, read 5,087,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
That would be relevant if I argued that your guns should be bolted to your nightstand.

And some crime happens indoors. Better to reduce that than reduce none.
But this discussion is about why Blacks & Hispanics support gun control. If their fear is more about getting shot outside rather than getting shot inside, then doesn't it make sense that they'd support ideas that limit the guns outside rather than ideas the increase guns inside?
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:13 PM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,848,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
But this discussion is about why Blacks & Hispanics support gun control. If their fear is more about getting shot outside than getting shot inside, then doesn't it make sense that they'd support ideas that limit the guns outside than ideas the increase guns inside?
Maybe. But I still don't see what you're getting at. I all but conceded the fact that they do generally support gun control laws to some extent more than the general population does.

That'd be stupid anyway, given that concealed carry permit holders have a crime rate a fraction of that of the general population. And lack of a permit is less effective at stopping criminals than laws that limit the supply of guns.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,701 posts, read 5,087,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
Maybe. But I still don't see what you're getting at. I all but conceded the fact that they do generally support gun control laws to some extent more than the general population does.
What I'm getting it as, is what I've been saying all along. If people dealing w/ gun violence don't believe that more guns will stop the gun violence, then I'm siding with them. It may not be empirically provable that they're right or wrong, but unlike what 1/2 the Conservatives on here have said, I know that Blacks & Hispanics are smart enough to examine their surroundings and make choices that think are in their best interest.

Quote:
That'd be stupid anyway, given that concealed carry permit holders have a crime rate a fraction of that of the general population. And lack of a permit is less effective at stopping criminals than laws that limit the supply of guns.
Is there actual evidence of a correlation between CCP & a drop in violence, instead of correlation between CCP & places that aren't dangerous to being with? All I ever see are people comparing spread out, small cities in Arizona to densely populated cities like Chicago.

And the hole in the permit logic is that criminals don't shop for guns in places where they need a permit to buy.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:33 PM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,848,042 times
Reputation: 1516
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
What I'm getting it as, is what I've been saying all along. If people dealing w/ gun violence don't believe that more guns will stop the gun violence, then I'm siding with them. It may not be empirically provable that they're right or wrong, but unlike what 1/2 the Conservatives on here have said, I know that Blacks & Hispanics are smart enough to examine their surroundings and make choices that think are in their best interest.
Well you're free to think that, but I don't think they're any more equipped with objective statistical knowledge than anyone else. If anything, they're biased because in their eyes, guns are primarily used for crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
Is there actual evidence of a correlation between CCP & a drop in violence, instead of correlation between CCP & places that aren't dangerous to being with? All I ever see are people comparing spread out, small cities in Arizona to densely populated cities like Chicago.

And the hole in the permit logic is that criminals don't shop for guns in places where they need a permit to buy.
Some studies say yes, some say the opposite.

What I do know however, is that people who do hold them, are more law abiding than the general public.

And I'm not talking about purchase permits. I'm talking about carry permits, as in outside.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:46 PM
 
7,300 posts, read 6,709,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Actually Obama and his Fast and Furious supplied them those guns -- but apparently you have not heard of that because the media is downplaying that.

Mexico has ships arriving from China filled with the supplies needed to produce tons of meth -- and if Obama were to stop supplying the cartels with US made weapons, they can be easily obtained from China or anywhere.

Obama certainly has not gotten any control over the southern border nor is he stopping tons of drugs from being shipped over it every day. Nor shortage of cocaine or meth -- there will be no shortage of weapons, and they'll be easier to get since no background checks will be required when buying them from the black market.
Wrong. I don't know if you read this article, or are merely continuing to parrot the others. For countless years, the guns in Mexico have been supplied by gun MANUFACTURERS. Mexico barely manufactures. The U.S. gun manufacturers' nefarious for-profit industry has turned our country into a hellhole, and has turned Mexico into a hellhole as well. The bs has to stop now.
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,171 posts, read 1,448,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
Wrong. I don't know if you read this article, or are merely continuing to parrot the others. For countless years, the guns in Mexico have been supplied by gun MANUFACTURERS. Mexico barely manufactures. The U.S. gun manufacturers' nefarious for-profit industry has turned our country into a hellhole, and has turned Mexico into a hellhole as well. The bs has to stop now.
So its the Us gun manufacturers fault Mexico is such a hellhole, and why the US is a hellhole.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:06 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,510,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
Wrong. I don't know if you read this article, or are merely continuing to parrot the others. For countless years, the guns in Mexico have been supplied by gun MANUFACTURERS. Mexico barely manufactures. The U.S. gun manufacturers' nefarious for-profit industry has turned our country into a hellhole, and has turned Mexico into a hellhole as well. The bs has to stop now.
Guess what -- the USA is not the only source of weapons. Mexico got weapons from the USA because Obama and Holder chose to send them weapons, but also the cartels have people here who steal weapons -- just like they steal cars even though cars are manufactured in plenty of countries including Mexico.

We can also obtain Russian made or China made guns if the manufacture of them is stopped in the USA. Just like cocaine comes from Colombia, and Mexico can buy meth ingredients from the USA or China -- it makes little different.

Remember -- globalism. And the traffickers are essentially globalists. They will provide people what they want. The same Obama that cannot get any control over the southern border when it comes to tons of illegal drugs, will not have any more control over the traffickers when they bring ammunition.

Prohibition doesn't work, it just pushes the import and sales to the black market.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,701 posts, read 5,087,359 times
Reputation: 4270
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
Well you're free to think that, but I don't think they're any more equipped with objective statistical knowledge than anyone else. If anything, they're biased because in their eyes, guns are primarily used for crime.



Some studies say yes, some say the opposite.

What I do know however, is that people who do hold them, are more law abiding than the general public.

And I'm not talking about purchase permits. I'm talking about carry permits, as in outside.
You call it bias, I call it experience. I don't think there's anymore ground to cover, so it's safe to say we can agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
Wrong. I don't know if you read this article, or are merely continuing to parrot the others. For countless years, the guns in Mexico have been supplied by gun MANUFACTURERS. Mexico barely manufactures. The U.S. gun manufacturers' nefarious for-profit industry has turned our country into a hellhole, and has turned Mexico into a hellhole as well. The bs has to stop now.
Preach. Like I keep pointing out. The ATF witnessed 29 people transfer various amounts of guns to Mexican cartel members and STILL weren't able to prosecute them as straw purchasers. The NRA, the gun lobby, and the politicians that made it legal for the guns to cross borders legally are as complicit as the guys selling the guns to the cartels.

Last edited by CaseyB; 01-20-2013 at 04:14 PM.. Reason: response to deletion
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:17 PM
 
7,300 posts, read 6,709,976 times
Reputation: 2915
Default Hmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinSonic View Post
So its the Us gun manufacturers fault Mexico is such a hellhole, and why the US is a hellhole.
Well, not exactly. Some guns are manufactured outside of the U.S. but brought into the U.S. to add to the hellhole status of the U.S., and among those manufactured outside of the U.S. and brought here, some, too, have been sold to Mexico, so it can continue to be a hellhole as well.

The keyword here is hellhole. That's what gun nuts seem to like doing to countries. It's perfect! It justifies their buying even more guns, which creates more of a hellhole, which justifies buying even more guns, and creates even more of a hellhole, which justifies buying even more guns, and so on, circularly ad infinitum! See what an amazing buncha folks American gun nuts are?
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