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View Poll Results: Is Israel a monster?
Yes. 46 41.82%
No. 64 58.18%
Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2013, 08:58 AM
 
9,969 posts, read 14,576,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
Actually there was a Biblical Kingdom of Israel.
Re-read what I wrote. What's the time date on that Biblical kingdom and how does it compare to the argument I was responding to...

 
Old 01-21-2013, 09:00 AM
 
361 posts, read 231,145 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerMtn View Post
I'm Jewish but have seen no posts in this thread that would deserve the accusations you've made. This discussion is about Israel, not Jews!
thats like having a conversation about mexico and saying your not talking about mexicans
 
Old 01-21-2013, 09:01 AM
 
32,037 posts, read 32,879,445 times
Reputation: 14921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post
Re-read what I wrote. What's the time date on that Biblical kingdom and how does it compare to the argument I was responding to...
My point is that there was a country called Israel but never has there been a country called Palestine.
 
Old 01-21-2013, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Fort Worth, TX
1,476 posts, read 1,505,412 times
Reputation: 1588
They've been a monster IMHO; misplacing an entire group, they did what the Europeans did to people in Africa. Because they weren't living "civilized" or what the western region deemed as civilized, worship the same god as them, and were different, they took land that they felt belonged to them. I guess if dinosaurs came back into the picture, we should just move out of their territory since they were here before us. And let's not think about if the natives of America came up, or the natives of Africa came up and said their ancestors lived on a certain piece of land, would we be willing to give that up; will Europeans be happy to give up the land they stole, murdered, and raped for? I think not.
 
Old 01-21-2013, 10:16 AM
 
9,969 posts, read 14,576,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
My point is that there was a country called Israel but never has there been a country called Palestine.
That was the Zionist argument. That a land supposedly without a people needed a people without a land.

And that land was supposedly be the best and safest haven for the Jews of the wold to immigrate to. Unfortunately that turned out to be incredibly false. It turned out to be not much safer than Central Europe had been.

However at the same time the idea of Israeli nationalism emerged, the idea of Palestinian nationalism emerged around the same time. Looking back at history, if a few events had gone a different way the whole might have just been part of some Greater Syria. You can argue day and night that no such place as Palestine ever existed--which is one of the names the area was called in various languages for the better part of two thousand years--but it is to deny the existence of the people who lived in the region for most of that period--or to pretend that the no country called Israel at any point since the period long before the birth of Christ.

At this point Israel has a much right to exist as East Timor or Togo or Kuwait or any of the other states that formed in the last century. However, if they want to continue to imagine they're going to settle the West Bank or deny the Palestinians a state or voice--they're going to continue to pay for it in blood. History makes that clear--when people are denied self-determination, they will fight for it. Just as the Israelis fought against the British. The price of conquest is you often have to fight for it--the Israelis realize that, it's part of the game...it will continue to go on, and the USA will gladly help foot the bill.

Last edited by Deezus; 01-21-2013 at 10:41 AM..
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:38 AM
 
32,037 posts, read 32,879,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post

However at the same time the idea of Israeli nationalism emerged, the idea of Palestinian nationalism emerged around the same time. Looking back at history, if a few events had gone a different way the whole might have just been part of some Greater Syria. You can argue day and night that no such place as Palestine ever existed--which is one of the names the area was called in various languages for the better part of two thousand years--but it is to deny the existence of the people who lived in the region for most of that period--or to pretend that the no country called Israel at any point since the period long before the birth of Christ.

At this point Israel has a much right to exist as East Timor or Togo or Kuwait or any of the other states that formed in the last century. However, if they want to continue to imagine they're going to settle the West Bank or deny the Palestinians a state or voice--they're going to continue to pay for it in blood. History makes that clear--when people are denied self-determination, they will fight for it. Just as the Israelis fought against the British. The price of conquest is you often have to fight for it--the Israelis realize that, it's part of the game...it will continue to go on, and the USA will gladly help foot the bill.
I agree that the local Palestinian Arabs have gotten a raw deal in general but this is due primarily because of the British and then afterwards by the neighboring Arab states (letting them rot in refugee camps) and a solution for this group of people needs to be found without trying to erase Israel from the map.
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:41 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,577 posts, read 74,459,549 times
Reputation: 48026
no we have become a monster. israel is fighting for their life, we are fighting for our life style and want to enlighten all others (by force of arms if necessary) to the right way to live, obviously our way.
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:44 AM
 
1,229 posts, read 981,597 times
Reputation: 666
Israel is a whine baby hughy. It has a powerful military and thinks it can have its own way in everything. Its the tail wagging the dog in the Middle East. It was the worst thing ever that the US pushed for the new state of Israel to be created. Pushy people who are very hard to get along with. I understand why the Germans were not in love with them. They wear out their welcome where ever they go.


How jews treat Muslims in Israel part1 - YouTube
 
Old 01-21-2013, 12:02 PM
 
9,066 posts, read 5,597,399 times
Reputation: 3824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
My point is that there was a country called Israel but never has there been a country called Palestine.
Your point is extremely self serving and not very accurate. The country called Israel, or the biblical region referred to as Israel was originally the land of Canaan, made up of nomadic Semitic peoples from the Bronze and Iron ages. Later, the region was divided into the regions of Judah and Samaria, and to the North, Galilee, which was a confederation known as the United Kingdom of Israel, that lasted all of about 78 years, from 1009 BC, to 930 BC. It was many things before that, and many things afterward. Israel is a snapshot in time, ... a blink of the historical eye.

This larger region for which the former Kingdom was briefly a part of, has been called Palestine or some iteration of that for a much longer period than the Kingdom of Israel ever existed, such as Palestinia (the Roman name for the region), or, starting about the 5th Century BC, Philistine Syria, based on the Philistines (several groups that slowly migrated to the region over time). The term Palestine was the name used for the region during the Christian Crusades, and was the name found on all modern maps of the region for many many hundreds of years until the 1940's, when the State of Israel was created and recognized as a State by the United Nations.

The term Israel was not the name of a country, but was the name given Jacob (Yisra'el) (Genesis 32:28) meaning "God contended)". and the 12 tribes (12 sons of Jacob comprised) much of the territory that became a confederation of kingdoms, which is referred to in the old testament as the Kingdom of Israel.

This is of course a condensed and simplified version of the very complex history of the region, but it serves to dismiss this myth that somehow the semitic peoples of nomadic Arab lineage known as the Canaanites who comprised the region of Canaan, that predated the Kingdom of Israel, never existed. The myth that Israel was always this nation called Israel today is a completely self serving distortion of history. The Israelites who were themselves murdering marauders who invaded and ethnically cleansed the regions which they took dominion over is well described in the old testament, including the bloody gore of killing everything alive, man, woman, child and beast. Yahweh was a very nasty fellow indeed, and the old testament is a testament to that fact. That modern day Jews (most of whom have no bloodline link to these semitic lands whatsoever) who are predominantly of European heritage have so twisted the history upside down as to have the gaul to call the true semitic Arabs anti-Semites for opposing invasion and expulsion form their lands they had occupied for the better part of the last 2000 years.

But it's a genocidal mindset to suggest that Palestinians "never existed" because the Jews who occupied these lands called Palestine are just as much Palestinians as are their Arab neighbors who predated them.

By contrast, we know that the Native Americans who long occupied the land in what is now called the United States of America were ethnically cleansed by the European migrants to America, but no one would be so deluded as to claim these Tribes of Native Americans never existed, or that there was no "country" called "Cherokee" recognized by the invaders. The Cherokee Nation existed, the Apache Nation existed, many other tribes existed ... the Iroquois Confederation (called the six nations made up of the Cayuga, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Seneca, and the Tuscarora) that still exists today, and did exist when the Europeans arrived here, do not simply disappear from history because the Europeans defeated them and took their land.

And I have a feeling that more than a few Americans would complain if the United Nations funded and armed the Lakota Nation with modern weaponry, in order to retake the lands stolen from them, bulldozing your houses ... destroying your farms ... dividing you and preventing you from having a functional economy, and claiming that you never existed, and that you just need to quit your whining and return back to your old European States of natural origin. You all would have a problem with that, wouldn't ya? Well, so do the indigenous peoples of the region called Palestine who have lived there for the last 1000 years.
 
Old 01-21-2013, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Central Illinois -
21,407 posts, read 14,296,716 times
Reputation: 14528
The extreme rightwing that controls the Republican Party is fully and totally committed to the removal and/or continued confinement to a concentration camp existence of the Palestinian people, and now they have their low information base and paranoid warmonger supporters shrieking that they need to take their murderous ways to Iran, which, (shocker!) also has a large supply of oil underground.

Israel wants to double down on their savagery, and have Iran in their sights, trying to convince someone other than their fascist rightwing supporters in the U.S. to join them in their attempts to widen their homegrown war, and distract the world from their policies of genocide in occupied Palestine
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