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Old 01-22-2013, 11:12 PM
 
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17 Shot, 2 Killed Over Weekend In Chicago CBS Chicago

Why isn't this constant on going slaughter in Chicago in the media focus? Doesn't fit into their agenda?
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:33 PM
 
Location: The Cascade Foothills
10,953 posts, read 8,682,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Yep, and gun control laws haven't stopped them, have they? If they have? Show us where they have! THEN, you have a point!



Let's see. Backtracking here...

You wanted to show your 18 year old son (who actually, would not have been legally able to purchase it himself) that he could be trusted? So you went and bought him an "assault weapon", that he himself could not have legally purchased...but yet that you would disaprove of in the hands of older adults?

What the hell kind of sense does this make?

Where did you buy it? Did you have to pass a background check to do so? What kind of ammo did you buy with it? Or did you? If not, where did he buy and what calibre was it?



LOL Believe me, you are no more "confused" than I am about all you say!

Anyway, I gotta hit the sack. We can rejoin another time. Have a good evening!
Uh, yes, he could buy it. The background check was done in his name right after he turned eighteen.

It was bought at a sporting goods store and he actually went back and bought another one at the same store - without me - at a later time.

I don't remember what kind of ammo we bought at that time; it was 4 1/2 years ago.

I don't know what caliber it is. I am not into guns. It was some kind of Russian military rifle that this store sells.

But, hey! I'll tell you what. Tomorrow is his day off from work and he usually shows up here on at least one of his days off; if he shows up or calls, I'll ask him.

He had to wait until he was 21 to buy his handgun.

Ok - I googled the store we bought it from and Russian rifle and got this:

Century M91/30 Russian Mosin Nagant Bolt-Action Rifle Sporting Arms

Maybe it's not an assault rifle? I haven't seen it or shot it myself for several years - I was thinking it was an assault rifle but maybe I was wrong.

Like I said, I'm not into guns. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't have an opinion about gun ownership and responsibility.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:58 PM
 
19,360 posts, read 17,472,378 times
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A fight between two men, one of whom was a student, maybe both, resulted in at least one handgun being used to wound three. Charges will be filed and barring an idiot judge or incompetent prosecutors there will be serious penalties to pay.
As for me, I'm looking forward to hearing the facts of the case and won't jump to knee jerk hysterics and use it to attack people I disagree with.
But locally we just had a crime that has raised much public interest. A bicyclist was attacked and stabbed on a bike trail near midnite by a gang of 12 to 15 teenagers. He got away but had to seek medical treatment for his injuries and at least two youths are now in custody.
This comes less than a year after another bicyclist was attacked by three teenagers on the same trail and coincidentally one of the youths was from the same public housing project as one of the two just arrested.
In that encounter, the man pulled out a handgun and shot and killed one youth and wounded another. He had a CCP and the community rallied to his defense overwhelmingly and it was declared justifiable self defense.
In both cases the juveniles had been cited earlier that day by police, one for truancy the other for theft and both were released.
You'd have thought that these kids would have learned something from the first shooting but apparently not. There's also a strong demand for the parents of the youths arrested to be held accountable for their actions. I agree 100%.
We've also had a big increase in gun sales and CCP and our county sheriff is on record opposing any new gun legislation as being unneccessary and is in favor of more lawful citizens owning guns and carrying them. Our county has over 400,000 people, BTW.
I've walked on that trail. The assaults on it were the motivating factor for me to get a CCP. What would I have done if I was attacked like those two men? I hope never to find out, but likewise I hope nobody else has to find out either.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:17 AM
 
198 posts, read 141,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
17 Shot, 2 Killed Over Weekend In Chicago CBS Chicago

Why isn't this constant on going slaughter in Chicago in the media focus? Doesn't fit into their agenda?
No, it doesn't fit the gun grabbers agenda like the other 5 reported shootings that I found in a quick search that occurred in PA, LA, WA. CO, and NY on 1/22/13. Not to mention Chicago shootings are an every day occurrence so it's not news.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Florida
62,970 posts, read 34,302,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
No it isnt a weak argument. If you are arguing for more gun control as the "solution" to the "problem"?

Then you must first show how they have worked thus far. The burden of proof is on your side, not mine.
No, I am not arguing for more control, I am just saying that the argument "most shootings happen in gun free zones" is weak. I should have said it is inaccurate as opposed to weak. Vast majority of shootings happen on the streets and homes, not in gun free zones, and that is a fact. People focus on the rarest forms of shooting, like this one in Texas, where no one was even killed. I guess people talk about whatever the media wants them to talk about.

Quote:
And who said anything about arming party happy college kids? What do those of you ilk always resort to the silliest absurbity, you can come up with?
Why the personal stabs?

A lot of people are saying the collage kids should be allowed to carry weapons in collage, and while that has a potential of preventing a shooting (very small potential), such policy is far more likely to cause way more accitental fatalities and injuries than prevent attacks.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:40 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,048,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Who said anything about carrying? If the kids had guns in their rooms, which is where they get hammered, there would be an increased chance of accidents. Do you disagree with this?
I do disagree with it. Utah has had concealed carry on campus for several years with no incidents. And, you're only discussing students. This includes professors and staff as well, not just students 21 years of age or older.

We've already established that those who have CPL licenses are already less likely to commit crimes in the first place, and admittedly, the crime that tends to get them revoked are relatively minor. DUI, drinking while carrying, carrying in a prohibited place, trespassing, etc. The rates of violent crime amongst holders of CPLs is something like 15x less. So, if the question was do I trust a drunk guy with a CPL or a drunk guy in general, I'd pick the guy with the CPL. He's less likely to start **** (whether he has a gun or not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I didn't say they obey laws. Killing someone in itself it a violation of law, with or without guns. I am pro-gun BTW, I am just saying that the "gun free zone" argument is pretty weak. I think arming party happy collage kids would lead to a lot of firearm accidents.
And yet it hasn't...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinebar View Post
I grew up with guns. My father was a lifelong hunter (and fisherman).

...
What I am afraid of are the idiots who don't want ANY common sense restrictions and oversight on gun ownership.
What happens when the restrictions and regulations presented don't make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
I support background checks on all gun sales.

As for your idea to impose penalties on people whose firearms are stolen, not a chance I'll support that. There is absolutely no way that anything can be secured so well that it can't be stolen in the average household. None whatsoever. Not to mention that in order to enforce this law, you would need to have a centralized database of people who own firearms.

The red flag system is a possibility, but only if it takes into account the fact that avid target shooters are likely to purchase massive quantities of ammunition due to it being cheaper in bulk pricing. I have a friend whose hobby is varming hunting out in Texas, and he regularly purchases 5000 rounds plus. You would also need to account for collectors and hobbyists who like to have several different varieties of firearm available.

First, explain why we should have to register our firearms. There isn't any reason for anyone to know that I own a firearm except for the dealer who sells it to me and the people I tell about it. None whatsoever. The government already knows that I own it if I have to go through a background check to purchase it, but it doesn't need to go into some centralized database of firearms owners so that we can be treated like Sex Offenders and end up on some sort of registry. Especially when we have newspapers that have shown their willingness to put maps of firearms owners on the internet.

The one and only reason that anyone would want all firearms to be registered is so that there is a centralized database of firearms owners, and I've yet to see any use for that database that isn't shady in some way.
I don't know any liberal gun owners who have problems with gun registries or background checks. It seems the opposition to that from what I've seen comes from the "gubmint be fascists!" crowd. I hope you aren't one of those. The federal government doesn't have a registry of firearms, and I've learned recently, the BATFE has no way of actually keeping track of gun sales. States might have individual laws trying to track that, but there isn't any national database.

Background checks are sensible because it can directly stop someone from legally purchasing a firearm in a store. The problem we run into is private sales. It will be hard to enforce a background check on every sale. Forcing individuals to sell their legally possessed firearms through an FFL (at a charge, of course) is an egregious violation of your rights. You'd be better off with forcing the individual who is purchasing to obtain a "right to purchase" document, which would allow the individual selling a firearm to affirm (to the best of his or her knowledge) that the purchasee has been cleared on a background check.

That document could be for a single purchase, a license (such as a CPL), or other. That way, it isn't the legal responsability of the private seller. There should be no legal recourse for the seller any more than there is for someone selling an automobile privately. Dealerships, in the business of selling cars, generally confirm that the purchasee has insurance, a license, etc. Private sellers have no such onus, and they shouldn't.

Of course, all this means nothing applied to rifles and shotguns, which make up such a small part of homicides each year. The vast majority of firearm homicides (something like seven or eight thousand) occur by handgun.

I know there have been several attempts to limit handgun possession, including purchase-permits. Curious to see how those worked out where enforced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinebar View Post
My son, who is 22, self-supporting, and does not live with me, actually has two of these guns - one I bought for him for his 18th birthday from a local sporting goods store (Big 5). They are some kind of Russian military rifle, possibly an AR14? I have such little interest in guns that I can't really tell you for sure. He starts talking about guns and it goes in one ear and out the other because I just don't understand the obsession.

And, yes, he had to pass the background check.

When he turned 21, he bought a handgun, although I don't think he has a CCW permit yet.

And guess what? He isn't a paranoid freak who thinks Obama is going to take his guns. In fact, he voted for Obama - twice.

I don't give a flying eff if you think my post is b.s. or not. I stopped caring what paranoid gun huggers thought of me a long time ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinebar View Post
I don't have a problem with my son.

Why would I? He's reasonable and realistic about gun ownership.

He loves his guns and enjoys them in a way that I don't understand but he has no problems with background checks and some other common sense restrictions.

He also sees the NRA for what it is - a mouthpiece for the gun industry.
What does your son think of the swath of firearm regulations being proposed?
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Florida
62,970 posts, read 34,302,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
I do disagree with it. Utah has had concealed carry on campus for several years with no incidents. And, you're only discussing students. This includes professors and staff as well, not just students 21 years of age or older.
I'm cool with professors and staff carrying as long as they take a course to learn how to use the firarm in a mass shooting situation.

How many universities in Utah allow guns?

Quote:
We've already established that those who have CPL licenses are already less likely to commit crimes in the first place, and admittedly, the crime that tends to get them revoked are relatively minor.
Yes, at least in FL very few firearm crimes are committed by people with carry permits. I have a permit myself. I am talking about collage kids. I went to collage, and I know how it gets in the weekends, and even on week days, when the beer flows and drugs are used. Kids do some amazignly stupid things when drunk. You probabaly know what I am talking about. It is best to let the schools decide, and I think most schools would rule against guns. The feds or even the State does not need to make laws about it.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:58 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,048,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I'm cool with professors and staff carrying as long as they take a course to learn how to use the firarm in a mass shooting situation.

How many universities in Utah allow guns?
All the public ones.

Quote:
Yes, at least in FL very few firearm crimes are committed by people with carry permits. I have a permit myself. I am talking about collage kids. I went to collage, and I know how it gets in the weekends, and even on week days, when the beer flows and drugs are used. Kids do some amazignly stupid things when drunk. You probabaly know what I am talking about. It is best to let the schools decide, and I think most schools would rule against guns. The feds or even the State does not need to make laws about it.
Ahem. College

I've been to college too. Utah's law basically states that public schools represent public places. Private colleges would still be able to bar firearms on campus as they are private entities. And like I said, there hasn't been any incidences that I've seen.

I don't see how a college dormitory is any different than an apartment building, a classroom any different than a workplace.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Florida
62,970 posts, read 34,302,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konraden View Post
I don't see how a college dormitory is any different than an apartment building, a classroom any different than a workplace.
No different than a regular apartment building? And you say you actually went to college?

The answer about Utah schools is 10. There are 10 such schools. I actually like the law saying public schools are public spaces. It leaves private schools the option to either allow or prohibit guns, which leaves the kids and their parents a choice in case they are not comfortable with the idea that there are guns at the schools. http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/...-overview.aspx

Quote:
Utah remains the only state to have statute specifically naming public colleges and universities as public entities that do not have the authority to ban concealed carry, and thus, all 10 public institutions in Utah allow concealed weapons on their property
I was not able to find accident statistics to support, or oppose my concern about firearm accidents in collage.

I did find a list which would indicate college kids have used fireams successfully to defend themselves on campus, and not only in Utah
Quote:
  • Arizona, October 16, 2008
    A University of Arizona student shoots two intruders in self-defense.
  • South Carolina, August 9, 2008
    A Citadel military school student successfully scares off a bat-wielding road rage driver by brandishing a handgun in self-defense.
  • Michigan, January 20, 2008
    A University of Michigan student shoots and kills two intruders in self-defense.
  • Utah, September 18, 2007
    A Utah Valley State College licensed to carry a concealed weapon shot a pit bull that was attacking him. The animal survived the shooting, and at the student’s request, no charges were filed against the dog’s owner.
  • California, April 25, 2007
    University of Southern California students overpowered a man, taking away his firearm and holding him at gunpoint for police. The man had become violent and threatening towards a female at a student party and refused to leave.
  • Ohio, April 24, 2007
    After a man demanded entry to a University of Akron student’s apartment and threatened him with a gun, the student returned fire with a roommate’s gun. The suspect then fled the scene.
  • Texas, January 25, 2007
    A Texas Tech student with a concealed carry permit grabbed his gun and hid when he heard someone trying to break in to his house. When the perpetrators successfully gained entry, the student took aim at the intruders. One fled, the other was detained for police.
  • Texas, January 24, 2007
    A Texas Tech student with a concealed carry permit returned home to find his car and home broken into, with the perpetrators still inside the house. The student fired two warning shots, causing the would-be thieves to flee.
  • Florida, September 8, 2006
    Two South Florida Community College students were attacked outside their apartment, but one used a .45 handgun to shoot one of the attackers in the chest. The other fled.
  • Virginia, December 10, 2005
    A Virginia Commonwealth University student was initially charged with murder after shooting an armed gang member in a confrontation outside a coin laundry business, but was cleared by authorities two months later when it was learned he acted in self-defense.
  • Georgia, September 19, 2005
    After dialing 911, a Mercer University School of Law student shot and killed a man that had broken into his home.
  • Kentucky, May 2, 2005
    A University of Kentucky student was cleared of wrongdoing after shooting a Louisville man who was robbing him outside a Lexington apartment complex.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-23-2013 at 07:07 AM..
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:43 AM
 
3,614 posts, read 3,048,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No different than a regular apartment building? And you say you actually went to college?
Indeed. What's your offense to that?

Quote:
The answer about Utah schools is 10. There are 10 such schools. I actually like the law saying public schools are public spaces. It leaves private schools the option to either allow or prohibit guns, which leaves the kids and their parents a choice in case they are not comfortable with the idea that there are guns at the schools.

I was not able to find accident statistics to support, or oppose my concern about firearm accidents in collage.

I did find a list which would indicate college kids have used fireams successfully to defend themselves on campus, and not only in Utah
Citation for the numbers?
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