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Old 01-26-2013, 05:57 AM
 
Location: 77441
3,161 posts, read 3,811,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjv View Post
One of the most popular claims for why we have the 2nd amendment is also probably the most insane. Governments do not put in their constitutions provisions allowing the people to commit treason. Overthrowing the government is not a constitutional right.

just yesterday Courts ruled that obama was acting outside the Constitution.
That is Treason.
Throw his criminal @!#$ in Gitmo.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:37 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,293,715 times
Reputation: 5175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjv View Post
One of the most popular claims for why we have the 2nd amendment is also probably the most insane. Governments do not put in their constitutions provisions allowing the people to commit treason. Overthrowing the government is not a constitutional right.
Treason is defined as acts against the United States of America.
So first we need to define what the United States of America is.
Is it the government? Is it the People? Is it the vision outlined in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the writings of the Forefathers?
If the government becomes a tyranny and refuses to honor the contract between the government and the people, is the government still legitimate?
These questions need to be answered before your statement has any valid meaning whatsoever.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,715 posts, read 11,494,237 times
Reputation: 5606
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Treason is defined as acts against the United States of America.
So first we need to define what the United States of America is.
Is it the government? Is it the People? Is it the vision outlined in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the writings of the Forefathers?
If the government becomes a tyranny and refuses to honor the contract between the government and the people, is the government still legitimate?
These questions need to be answered before your statement has any valid meaning whatsoever.
18 USC 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute
18 USC 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:56 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,293,715 times
Reputation: 5175
The country was constructed to be "of the People"
The government derives its power and its legitimacy from the people."
"Codes" written by bureaucrats and not ratified by the people, have little legal basis when they conflict with the Supreme Law of the Land.
It is the people who decide what the United States of America is, Not the bureaucrats.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,715 posts, read 11,494,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
The country was constructed to be "of the People"
The government derives its power and its legitimacy from the people."
"Codes" written by bureaucrats and not ratified by the people, have little legal basis when they conflict with the Supreme Law of the Land.
It is the people who decide what the United States of America is, Not the bureaucrats.
Oh please, that's just hogwash. The Constitution (the Supreme Law of the Land) doesn't require that laws be "ratified by the people." It requires that they be duly passed by Congress and signed by the president. The Constitution founded "a representative democracy." You can't claim to defend the Constitution and then pick and choose only the parts you find convenient.

Title 18 is a law, passed by a legitimately elected Congress and signed by a legitimately elected President.

You can't claim that laws, legitimately passed in this manner, somehow don't apply when you don't want them to apply.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:18 AM
 
1,347 posts, read 1,993,327 times
Reputation: 945
Treason is only a crime if you lose, ultimately.

However guns are "the people's teeth". The Feds may find that they have a hard time enforcing any new gun bans in many southern states including Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Georgia to name a few.


(However the bill just introduced to Congress has NO chance of passing, none, zero, zilch, nada)
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:18 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,293,715 times
Reputation: 5175
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
Oh please, that's just hogwash. The Constitution (the the Supreme Law of the Land) doesn't require that laws be "ratified by the people." It requires that they be duly passed by Congress and signed by the president. We have a representative democracy.

Title 18 is a law, passed by a legitimately elected Congress and signed by a legitimately elected President.

You can't claim that laws, legitimately passed in this manner, somehow don't apply when you don't want them to apply.
Ok, I will say this slowly, please try to pay attention. If a law enacted by congress is in conflict with the Constitution, then the law passed by congress is null and void. The Constitution including the Bill of Rights is the Supreme Law meaning it over rides all other laws.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,715 posts, read 11,494,237 times
Reputation: 5606
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Ok, I will say this slowly, please try to pay attention. If a law enacted by congress is in conflict with the Constitution, then the law passed by congress is null and void. The Constitution including the Bill of Rights is the Supreme Law meaning it over rides all other laws.
Psst, you are typing, not speaking slowly. You should learn the difference. Besides, I don't need someone like you, someone who clearly has no idea what they are writing about, address me in a condescending manor.

If you are trying to make the case that the Treason provision of Title 18 USC conflicts with the Constitution you really don't know what you are writing about. That law has been tested over the years and no court has come to that absurd determination.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:32 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,583 posts, read 8,238,820 times
Reputation: 4158
(oops, duplicate)

Last edited by Little-Acorn; 01-26-2013 at 10:52 AM..
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:51 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,583 posts, read 8,238,820 times
Reputation: 4158
A couple of pithy quotes, often attributed to Benjamin Franklin, though I have never seen any reference that actually proves he said them:

"Treason is a charge invented by winners, as an excuse for hanging the losers."

- goes to the idea that the definition of "treason" can vary, depending on who is levelling the charge. But in this country, "treason" is clearly and concretely spelled out in the Constitution, so no vagueness applies.

"Revolution is always legal in the first person, "our revolution". It is only in the third person, "their revolution", that it is illegal."

- used in a recent movie about some of the Framers, but again I've seen no real evidence that Franklin ever said it. It points to the idea that violating a government's laws can be a bad thing... unless the laws themselves are illegitimate. That is, if the laws themselves run contrary to the purpose that government was created for. When laws become abusive enough, there comes a point where the laws themselves are in fact "illegal" - or wrong in a higher sense - and disobeying those abusive and unjust laws is the only "legal" - or right - path. The people creating those abusive laws cannot be counted on to recognize the illegality or unjustness of their acts.
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