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Old 01-29-2013, 07:35 AM
 
11,780 posts, read 8,587,835 times
Reputation: 3425

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
And your statement clarified things for me a bit more.

At one time I thought gun lovers and gun owners were these patriotic, Constitution-obsessed people. How I got that impression was that gun lovers and gun owners loved to mouth off to people who were against gun ownership. They'd say: "Oh you don't care about the Constitution!" "You're not a REAL American!" "The Second Amendment gives us all the right to own guns!" "You don't care that our country was founded based on the Constitution!" Yada yada yada, blah blah blah. Because they came at me in real life and online with these or similar lines, I got curious. I looked up the Second Amendment.

When I looked it up, I nearly fell off my chair to find out that the darn thing was NOT about guns, but about MILITIAS' importance, and that those serving in militias should not be denied the right to guns. It had NOTHING AT ALL to do with individual people wanting to have guns.

SO, having found out the truth, I returned to gun owners and gun lovers to point out that the Second Amendment had nothing to do with some individuals wanting to own guns. I didn't know what to expect would be the response of the gun-obsessed. But here it is...

Gun owners, gun lovers, and gun obsessed NRA-kissing, gimme-my-gun-or-else people basically:

(1) Couldn't care less about the Constitution
(2) Couldn't care less about the Supreme Court
(3) Couldn't care less about truth, facts, or who lives and dies by guns

They just want their guns, and to that end, they'll side with any side that will allow them individual ownership. If that means it's the SC, then by golly, the SC are the good guys. If that means it's the Constitution, then the Constitution is the good guys. And because it's clear that to them NOTHING matter excepts their gun ownership, if guns were made illegal, then they'd go illegal too. No institution is bigger or more important than their desire to own guns as individuals. I'd classify them as unscrupulous people with a chameleonic ability to switch to any side that will allow them their guns.

Am I correct that you don't care a rat's behind about anything else in this issue except your individual gun ownership?
What exactly did you look up and can you link it? All of the available writings by the founders and judges alive back then support an individual right.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
6,939 posts, read 7,773,903 times
Reputation: 5688
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
What exactly did you look up and can you link it? All of the available writings by the founders and judges alive back then support an individual right.
Don't ask Saritaschihuahua to provide proof of any argument. I've tried, and it's a waste of time. Saritaschihuahua's entire position is based on emotion and belief in a false premise.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:59 AM
 
11,780 posts, read 8,587,835 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
Don't ask Saritaschihuahua to provide proof of any argument. I've tried, and it's a waste of time. Saritaschihuahua's entire position is based on emotion and belief in a false premise.
I'm noticing that trend myself.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:00 AM
 
78,754 posts, read 33,515,967 times
Reputation: 15774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
And your statement clarified things for me a bit more.
First off allow me to thank you for more than a one liner clarification for your position.

Quote:
At one time I thought gun lovers and gun owners were these patriotic, Constitution-obsessed people. How I got that impression was that gun lovers and gun owners loved to mouth off to people who were against gun ownership. They'd say: "Oh you don't care about the Constitution!" "You're not a REAL American!" "The Second Amendment gives us all the right to own guns!" "You don't care that our country was founded based on the Constitution!" Yada yada yada, blah blah blah. Because they came at me in real life and online with these or similar lines, I got curious. I looked up the Second Amendment.

When I looked it up, I nearly fell off my chair to find out that the darn thing was NOT about guns, but about MILITIAS' importance, and that those serving in militias should not be denied the right to guns. It had NOTHING AT ALL to do with individual people wanting to have guns.
That isn't what it says.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The right of the people. When this was written, there was no such thing as a well regulated militia so would it have not seemed a bit odd to install a right for something that did not exist? The militia existed to defend the country only because people could take their guns off the mantle and go out and defend the county.

You also have to read the corresponding writings of the framers to get a better understanding of what they were writing. Granted, the way the Constitution was written does not make for easy reading.

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment


"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams


"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington


"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine


I can do these quotes all day.

Quote:
SO, having found out the truth, I returned to gun owners and gun lovers to point out that the Second Amendment had nothing to do with some individuals wanting to own guns. I didn't know what to expect would be the response of the gun-obsessed. But here it is...

Gun owners, gun lovers, and gun obsessed NRA-kissing, gimme-my-gun-or-else people basically:

(1) Couldn't care less about the Constitution
(2) Couldn't care less about the Supreme Court
(3) Couldn't care less about truth, facts, or who lives and dies by guns

They just want their guns, and to that end, they'll side with any side that will allow them individual ownership. If that means it's the SC, then by golly, the SC are the good guys. If that means it's the Constitution, then the Constitution is the good guys. And because it's clear that to them NOTHING matter excepts their gun ownership, if guns were made illegal, then they'd go illegal too. No institution is bigger or more important than their desire to own guns as individuals. I'd classify them as unscrupulous people with a chameleonic ability to switch to any side that will allow them their guns.

Am I correct that you don't care a rat's behind about anything else in this issue except your individual gun ownership?
I have absolutely no desire to buy a gun. I have one gun. A single shot shotgun that my dad gave me when I was young and it hasn't been shot in years.

So basically you are 0 for 2 in your thoughts here.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:33 AM
 
7,315 posts, read 5,537,461 times
Reputation: 2838
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
What exactly did you look up and can you link it? All of the available writings by the founders and judges alive back then support an individual right.
Look what up? What the frik are you talking about? I've been talking to you people and you've suddenly turned away from the Second Amendment in lieu of the Supremes. Go through the thread for documentation of what you gun lovers are saying now.

Anything to promote your gun ownership, eh?
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:41 AM
 
7,315 posts, read 5,537,461 times
Reputation: 2838
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
First off allow me to thank you for more than a one liner clarification for your position.

That isn't what it says.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The right of the people. When this was written, there was no such thing as a well regulated militia
Oh for chrissakes.

There's nothing less savory than trying to discuss history with the ignorant. It's like talking to a 5-year-old child - everything has to be explained, taught, and in this case, the full history of the U.S. has to be explained before you can even get to rung 1.

Please do me a favor. Next time, before responding, read a history book or two and spare the rest of us from having to teach you your own country's history.

Second, while you're at it, get a book of grammar or two, so you can understand basic English. Note I'm not even asking you to get a degree in law and learn Constitutional law. It's basic ENGLISH you lack, thinking that the predicates are the subjects of sentences.

Here, start with this, to learn what the difference is between a SUBJECT and a PREDICATE. The subject is the theme of a sentence of which the predicate is the declaratory statement or explanation. Subject and Predicate Once you have studied that, return to the Second Amendment and separate its structure to see if you can figure out what's the subject. I don't know how you're not embarrassed, really.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:44 AM
 
78,754 posts, read 33,515,967 times
Reputation: 15774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
Oh for chrissakes.

There's nothing less savory than trying to discuss history with the ignorant.
I tried to have a rational conversation with you. I can see that you are not interested.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:11 AM
 
11,780 posts, read 8,587,835 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
Look what up? What the frik are you talking about? I've been talking to you people and you've suddenly turned away from the Second Amendment in lieu of the Supremes. Go through the thread for documentation of what you gun lovers are saying now.

Anything to promote your gun ownership, eh?
You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
I got curious. I looked up the Second Amendment.

When I looked it up, I nearly fell off my chair to find out that the darn thing was NOT about guns, but about MILITIAS' importance, and that those serving in militias should not be denied the right to guns. It had NOTHING AT ALL to do with individual people wanting to have guns.
So I ask again, what exactly did you look up that would give you the impression that the right to own a gun is not an individual right and can you link it? The writings and opinions of Madison, Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Hamilton, George Tucker, William Rawle, William Blackstone, Joseph Story, Tench Coxe (and more) all clearly support the individual right.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:18 AM
 
7,315 posts, read 5,537,461 times
Reputation: 2838
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
I tried to have a rational conversation with you. I can see that you are not interested.
Oh I'm very interested! I'm very interested in you finally knowing your country's history, and in your learning and understanding basic English sentence structure, so you may discuss things with a degree of expertise. Right now, you know neither and spend your time merely spewing whatever you heard on Rush Radio.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:01 PM
 
124 posts, read 234,532 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
When are you clowns in Virginia going to have your next mass school shooting at a place Tech or UVA? They make really great television and help fill up the hours on cable news and talk radio!

Tech? UVA? Those were Gun Free Zones - kinda like DC. Bad examples. Try again.

How about tallying all the shootings in DC?

Last edited by BillHoo; 01-31-2013 at 02:19 PM..
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