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Old 02-07-2013, 11:46 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
8,496 posts, read 6,112,847 times
Reputation: 8392

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KS_Referee View Post
You are 100% correct. This is about dictating to others who don't agree, another person's belief.


Had the lady that went into that store said that she needed a wedding cake, & when asked for the names of the couple getting married, she chuckled and said, "Susan and Billy Goat because Susan loves her goat so much she decided to marry it." It would be a non-issue for 98% of the sane world that this is immoral, and the baker could have said, "GTF out of my store you idiot."

But no, this case was one that a specific and extremely small but militant group, the LGBT alliance, are trying to force upon society as normal. Do NOT think for one minute that there won't be some people for bestiality group or some NAMBLA (look it up) group who demands that their beliefs are perfectly normal and that society cannot discriminate against them or their views. BTW, NAMBLA is already trying to do this.

It is always about degrading society down to the lowest common denominator because some sicko doesn't like being called a sicko... believing the desires (what normal society would regard as a sickness) they have are normal, and not only need to be tolerated, but must be embraced as natural. If they don't get their way they will sue to get their way.

What folks like me advocate is that regardless the reason, people are free to choose, therefore can discriminate against anyone for any reason. Some try to argue this is just a way for bible thumpers to push their morality upon society. I argue that this natural law of individual free will, is a way to prevent others from forcing their immoral beliefs and actions upon anyone else who doesn't want it, which is the complete opposite of trying to force their morality upon the rest of society.

Which of the two actually promotes respect for everyone and individual liberty? Mandating special interest morality or letting individual free will determine whether or not they find something moral/immoral, therefore deciding whether or not to associate with or do business with that which they deem immoral?



I would argue that there are an awful lot of convicted felons in this country... probably 100-1000 times the amount of homosexuals and lesbians. By saying that, should I conclude that crime and criminal activity are NORMAL. Given these (potential) facts, can someone compel me as a potential employer, via legislation, to hire someone who is a convicted felon. The obvious answer is NO, they cannot compel me to hire a felon. I am free to choose, regardless of stupid laws which mandate that I must accept things as normal, if in my belief they are immoral.

This is common sense... but that isn't good enough for those who would force THEIR idea of morality upon the rest of society.
I think that many of the sickos actually do like being called sickos and I think the prime motivation of the most vehement, in-your-face, homosexual activists is to shock and offend others. They are misfits in every way.

Younger people do not begin to understand how bizarre this PC period is and how short-lived it will be. Mother nature will take care of this problem for us as she always has and always will.

 
Old 02-07-2013, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Planet earth
3,313 posts, read 1,311,690 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
I just don't get it. It's his business , his choice whom he chooses to bake for. The couple should just get over it and move on to another baker that wants their business.
Be careful. Some on here will call you a racist, homophobic scumbag who wants to revert back to the days of slavery and women not being allowed to vote. Never mind the fact that what you say makes perfect sense... That doesn't matter. Imposing THEIR will, THEIR morals (or lack of), THEIR ideology upon you in the name of diversity is all that matters.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 11:50 AM
 
12,063 posts, read 6,647,624 times
Reputation: 12882
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS_Referee View Post
Do we have to accept bestiality as normal? Do we have to accept NAMBLA as normal? When can we say, I don't approve, therefore I will not participate? When can we direct our lives, and the actions contained in those lives based upon our morals or religion? When can we say I don't agree, but I won't try to stop you, at the same time I refuse to assist you meet your goals simply because I don't agree?
.
You can't. NAMBLA, it's coming. Pedophelia will be deemed a sexual orientation even if it is illegal to practice. So you will have to bake the Nambla cake. Or the wedding cake for man and donkey. Your religion doesn't matter.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 12:39 PM
 
10,124 posts, read 6,241,637 times
Reputation: 5714
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS_Referee View Post
Be careful. Some on here will call you a racist, homophobic scumbag who wants to revert back to the days of slavery and women not being allowed to vote. Never mind the fact that what you say makes perfect sense... That doesn't matter. Imposing THEIR will, THEIR morals (or lack of), THEIR ideology upon you in the name of diversity is all that matters.
LOL, yeah I've already been called that for stating that a lot of gun related violence is due to demographics.... Call me what you will , I just say it as I see it.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 02:05 PM
 
40,033 posts, read 24,286,353 times
Reputation: 12597
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
So are you the arbritor of what a unique creation is? I didn't describe a generic cake - I described a unique creation for a Bar Mitzvah. And I noticed you didn't answer my question. Should a baker be able to deny making a custom cake because it will be used to celebrate a Jewish ceremony? You clearly think a baker should be able to deny making a custom cake because it will be used to celebrate a gay ceremony.

And so what if it's a custom creation? Baking and selling a custom cake is still a service he's offering to the general public. You could use this argument for any non-stock item. Hell, you could even use it for stock items - did the baker's creativity and artistic vision not go into the cake sitting there for sale in the display case?

Furthermore, doesn't the customer design the cake? Sure, the baker can suggest things and show examples, but it's the customer who makes the decision. The baker just executes it. If anything, aren't the stock-cakes more a representation of the baker's creativity and artistic vision - they're all his own and not dictated by the clients design.

How about a kitchen remodeling company? There are a lot more design elements in a kitchen remodel than in making a wedding cake. If I go though the process of designing a kitchen with a remodeling company, should they have the right to deny the service if they find out the kitchen is going into a house owned and occupied by two gay people living together as a couple?
You didn't describe a unique creation for a Bar Mitzvah. You described a generic cake with special flavorings that would be inscribed with a generic message. Like Happy Birthday! Happy Anniversary! The cake you described carefully avoided anything that would indicate it was for a Jewish ceremony. And no, I don't clearly think a baker should be able to deny making a custom cake because it will be used to celebrate a gay ceremony. I think the baker is a jerk. But I also think anyone with special talents and creative gifts should be able to control their creative product. When the baker makes something and puts it on the shelves or in the display cases, he's ceding control of those items. When someone asks him to make something special for their special event, he's not ceding control of his creative product. And that means he can choose whether to make it or not.

I'm not familiar with the process of kitchen remodeling, so I can't really speak to whether the remodeling company sees the finished product as an artistic and creative product. If the remodeling company think of themselves as artists, and their prices reflect that (see price of wedding cake versus price of birthday cake), then I would think they reserve the right to pick and choose which jobs they are interested in. I'd be more inclined to think that some of the sub-contractors that the kitchen remodeling company hires are artists, rather than the remodelers, though.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
8,803 posts, read 7,565,867 times
Reputation: 4501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
What a stupid argument. So if your religion dictates child sacrifice, laws against murder are Unconstitutional because they violate your free exercise of religion?

Freedoms are not absolute, and the Supreme Court has already ruled that equal access to public accommodation trumps individual liberty.
No, they're unconstitutional because they violate your rights.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 05:40 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 11,142,037 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
You didn't describe a unique creation for a Bar Mitzvah. You described a generic cake with special flavorings that would be inscribed with a generic message. Like Happy Birthday! Happy Anniversary! The cake you described carefully avoided anything that would indicate it was for a Jewish ceremony. And no, I don't clearly think a baker should be able to deny making a custom cake because it will be used to celebrate a gay ceremony. I think the baker is a jerk. But I also think anyone with special talents and creative gifts should be able to control their creative product. When the baker makes something and puts it on the shelves or in the display cases, he's ceding control of those items. When someone asks him to make something special for their special event, he's not ceding control of his creative product. And that means he can choose whether to make it or not.

I'm not familiar with the process of kitchen remodeling, so I can't really speak to whether the remodeling company sees the finished product as an artistic and creative product. If the remodeling company think of themselves as artists, and their prices reflect that (see price of wedding cake versus price of birthday cake), then I would think they reserve the right to pick and choose which jobs they are interested in. I'd be more inclined to think that some of the sub-contractors that the kitchen remodeling company hires are artists, rather than the remodelers, though.
You're the one who's proposing this exception to anti-discrimination laws based upon some sort of artistic, unique creation standard. What is your standard? How are you defining an artistic, unique creation within the context of a business open to the public? Does any wedding cake fall under that standard, or does it have to be somehow sufficiently artistic and unique. Can a Bar Mitzvah cake rise to that standard, or are all commissioned Bar Mitzvah cakes generic? What's your standard for non-cake businesses?

Right now we have a very clear standard: if you offer a commercial service to the public, you can't discriminate and deny that service based on the sex, race, religion, nationality, or sexuality (in places like Oregon at least) of the customer. I don't see any reason whatsoever to except the service of making wedding cakes and other things that YOU find sufficiently creative from that law.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 06:18 PM
 
Location: The Cascade Foothills
10,953 posts, read 8,667,535 times
Reputation: 6459
Hahahaha.....

It turns out that Klein is not only a bigot baker, he was also operating without a license......for eighteen months.

He did pay to renew his license, but only when the USDA showed up to do a routine inspection.

I just heard it on the news and I can't find anything on-line yet about it but when I do, I'll be sure and post a link to the story.

It seems like not only is he a homophobe and a bigot, he's not above trying to get away with not taking care of what is required of businesses (I wonder if there's anything in the bible about that?).

Maybe he forgot. For eighteen months.

What a loser.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 11:30 PM
 
2,951 posts, read 2,009,855 times
Reputation: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
Please tell me about the anti-discrimination laws you support and the limited circumstances in which they should be applied.
I fine with anti discrimination laws that forbid hotels from refusing to take people in. Anti discrimation laws should never trump first amendment rights.

I'm also against making protected classes of people. so blacks should also be punished for breaking discrimination laws for discriminating against whites.


I think that people who have homosexual relations are evil and should be thrown in jail. Obviously I don't think that they should be included in anti discrimination. I would have zero problem with including people who are confused about their sexuality and seeks help to be protected from discrimination (which comes from homosexuals).

I don't want to live near evil people and should have the right to never rent it to people who in a just society would be killed (see Leviticus) . "Gay rights" laws are made only to attack religious people by militant atheists.

in short
even if your stupid enough to believe that people are born with a immutable attraction to members of the same sex and should thus be protected in anti discrimination suits.
people who act on the said attraction are not included under any unbiased interpretation of the words.

according to the actual meaning of the text of almost every single anti discrimination laws that includes gays I would be allowed to discriminate against people who have same gender relations because I'm not discriminating based on their so called orientation but their evil action.
 
Old 02-07-2013, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,943,388 times
Reputation: 20423
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
I'm also against making protected classes of people. so blacks should also be punished for breaking discrimination laws for discriminating against whites.
Why am I not surprised that you can't understand these laws? News flash: Black people ARE prohibited from discriminating against white people (or any ethnic group) too. A "protected class" isn't a specific group of people, it's a category - like the category of race, which covers everyone who is human.

The rest of your post is so full of fail, it's not even worth addressing. As usual.
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