They Are Abomination Unto The Lord': Baker Who Refused To Make Wedding Cake For Lesbian Couple Faces State Investigation (federal, marriages)
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I don't see anyone cracking down on anyone. The lesbians made a complaint and they are required to review the complaint. I dont' know why gays always make a big deal out of everything, but it must be because they want their faces in the media so they can play their victim card. If a bakery refused to sell me a cake, I'd just go to another bakery.
They woudn't get attention if they did that. Normal people would do exactly that, but not the militants.
They certainly don't help their cause.
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Originally Posted by Oldhag1
I always wondered why that hasn't been an option used more often. I mean why not say to the prospective client "My heart just isn't into this, and I may not be able to do my best job, but gosh, if you insist I'll take your money. You'll get your cake, but if I were you I would try different baker."
The militants would still create a scene. There's no shutting them up. And they would get on forums and spew about it.
I was worried about that too, how we define bad taste, and I think we have to refer to SCOTUS Jacobellis v. Ohio. This case has nothing to do with what we are talking about, but Justice Stewart described obscenity as "I know it when I see it"; the relevance is that I don't see how a court could force a baker to make a Hitler cake when we utilize this same principle.
A valid argument.
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Are you asking from a theoretical or practical point of view? Theoretically, it is certainly possible to sue a baker in court to get an injunction, but I don't know the applicable state laws or why anyone would take the time to sue. I suppose to make point the ACLU might, but on what legal grounds?
I would have to say practical but I think the theoretical does come into play here. You never know when a court decides to come down along the rights of one to freely practice their religion.
It's my position that isolated cases are best left to the local population to address. At one time the problem was widespread. We can argue whether or not over time individuals could have solved this issue but no one can deny that the problem wasn't large. Sometimes with something this large there is at least a reasonable argument for government intervention.
It's not? Refusing to bake a wedding cake for lesbians isn't discrimination?
I was replying to a poster who thought that the poor analogy of a Jewish baker refusing to bake a cake with Hitler's face on it, was an 'interesting point'. That's not discrimination if the baker refuses to bake the cake.
this...
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Originally Posted by Mr.XXX
So where do you draw a line...Lets say a couple went to a Jewish baker and requested that he bake a cake with Hitler's photo...And he refused...should he be forced to bake that cake...
Let's take a different hypothetical example. Should a black owned bakery be forced to bake a cake for a KKK rally. Should a Jewish owned caterer be forced by law to cater a dinner for a Nazi rally. You can't equate discrimination of blacks as the same as discrimination against gay people. Black is a inherit characteristic in some people based on their genetic code inherited from their parents. Homosexuality is behavior/philosophy. That's two different things.
And if slavery isn't taking 2/3 rds of your income in taxes, then I don't know what slavery is. I'd love to hear what someone who thinks that's not slavery is a fair tax?
I always wondered why that hasn't been an option used more often. I mean why not say to the prospective client "My heart just isn't into this, and I may not be able to do my best job, but gosh, if you insist I'll take your money. You'll get your cake, but if I were you I would try different baker."
I doubt they would actually want him to make the cake for them anyway after he showed himself as an ignorant bigot (who doesn't even know his own Bible). I don't think that's the point.
So where do you draw a line...Lets say a couple went to a Jewish baker and requested that he bake a cake with Hitler's photo...And he refused...should he be forced to bake that cake...
Being a fascist loving America hating neo-Nazi isn't something you are born with. Equating it to something people are born with is a fail right from the start, a false dichotomy. It takes many years of willful ignorance, rage, and isolation to turn people into monsters that think putting men, women, and children into ovens based on their race is a good start.
No one I know would refuse them service, they would just charge 4x as much due to the "controversial nature of the subject matter" and ask them to send their friends for more. Why a bunch of skin heads would go to a Jewish bakery itself in order to help their bottom line to feed their family is beyond me as well.
Let's take a different hypothetical example. Should a black owned bakery be forced to bake a cake for a KKK rally. Should a Jewish owned caterer be forced by law to cater a dinner for a Nazi rally.
No, because the KKK or a Neo-Nazi group are not protected classes.
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Originally Posted by Prairieparson
You can't equate discrimination of blacks as the same as discrimination against gay people.
Of course you can. See the quotes from Martin Luther King Junior's wife Coretta Scott King below.
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Originally Posted by Prairieparson
Black is a inherit characteristic in some people based on their genetic code inherited from their parents. Homosexuality is behavior/philosophy. That's two different things.
Not really. Sexual orientation also has an innate biological basis. It's not a 'philosophy' or just a behavior.
Source: Reuters, March 31, 1998.
Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband's assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader's memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights.
"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people," she said.
Source: Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page. Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel, Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood," King stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group."
Source: Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18. "We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy," King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement "thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion." Her husband's struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said.
Source: Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4. "For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people," King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund.... "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions." - Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.
Source: Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000. "We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say 'common struggle' because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination."
Source: Reuters, June 8, 2001. "We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community," said Coretta Scott King, widow of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the slain civil rights leader.
I would have to say practical but I think the theoretical does come into play here. You never know when a court decides to come down along the rights of one to freely practice their religion.
It's my position that isolated cases are best left to the local population to address. At one time the problem was widespread. We can argue whether or not over time individuals could have solved this issue but no one can deny that the problem wasn't large. Sometimes with something this large there is at least a reasonable argument for government intervention.
I wasn't aware that there was a religion which taught that baking cakes with Hitlers face on it was integral to their religius beliefs.... Who knew?
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Who knew?