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Old 02-05-2013, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,075 posts, read 17,437,142 times
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These rifles, as well as most other rifles, will pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part, because of their ability to expel projectiles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by the average police officer.
The OPs link was actually correct...though they tried to distort the truth. ANY rifle cartridge will penetrate the handgun rated vests that cops use. Fortunately, most so-called assault weapons use rounds (.223/5.56, 7.62x39) that are less powerful than the much more common "deer rifle". A .30-06 "deer rifle" is far more powerful than any assault rifle round, and far more lethal. Yet a BAR or Remington 742 (which fire that round and function the same as an "assault weapon", as well as others that are more powerful) were not effected by the Clinton semi-auto ban.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:52 AM
 
11,780 posts, read 8,542,844 times
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Default We've ehad this discussion.

If you brought this subject up in light of mass shootings that took place read up on this article.
No increase in mass shootings - James Alan Fox - Crime & Punishment blog - Boston.com

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf


Though reputed to be “high-power,” the AR-15 ammunition isn’t. The development of the ammunition, and hence, the rifle, came from the need for the military to carry lighter ammunition than the .308 caliber used in the M-1 rifle the AR-15 replaced. When the AR was originally developed it was developed for the civilian market. If we look at ammunition power, the .223 caliber that the AR uses is actually fairly low, as is the diameter of the bullet itself. Ammunition power is measured in foot-pounds (ft/lbs). A review of some of the energy data from Hornady, a major manufacturer of ammunition shows that the AR-15 .223 caliber is not particularly high powered. For comparison, .308 (the caliber of the M-1 the AR replaced) and 30-06, a traditional hunting caliber are listed:

.223 – 1,282 ft/lbs
.308 – 2,446 ft/lbs
30-06 – 3,178 ft/lbs

One distinct advantage we have to decide whether reinstating the AWB would be effective is the benefit of empirical evidence. Part of the law enabling the AWB also required the Department of Justice to look at the effect of the ban on crime before and after the decade that it was in place. The DOJ study failed to show a significant impact on “assault weapon” use or support the allegation that large capacity magazines lead to more murders.

Quote:
According to medical examiners’ reports and hospitalization estimates, about 20% of gunshot victims died nationwide in 1993 (Gotsch et al., 2001). This figure rose to 23% in 1996, before declining to 21% in 1998 (Figure 9-3).111 Estimates derived from the Uniform Crime Reports and the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ annual National Crime Victimization Survey follow a similar pattern from 1992 to 1999 (although the ratio of fatal to non-fatal cases is much higher in these data than that in the medical data) and also show a considerable increase in the percentage of gunshot victims who died in 2000 and 2001 (Figure 9-3).112 Of course, changes in offender behavior or other changes in crime influenced these trends. Yet is worth noting that multiple wound shootings were elevated over pre-ban levels during 1995 and 1996 in four of five localities examined during our first AW study, though most of the differences were not statistically significant (Table 9-4, panels B through E).
[/quote]Another potential indicator of ban effects is the percentage of gunfire incidents resulting in fatal or non-fatal gunshot victimizations. If attacks with AWs and LCMs result in more shots fired and victims hit than attacks with other guns and magazines, we might expect a decline in crimes with AWs and LCMs to reduce the share of gunfire incidents resulting in victims wounded or killed. Measured nationally with UCR and NCVS data, this indicator was relatively stable at around 30% from 1992 to 1997, before rising to about 40% from 1998 through 2000 (Figure 9-4).113 Along similar lines, multiple victim gun homicides remained at relatively high levels through at least 1998, based on the national average of victims killed per gun murder incident (Table 9-4, panel A).114[/quote]

Quote:
Having said this, the ban’s impact on gun violence is likely to be small at best, and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were used in no more than 8% of gun crimes even before the ban. Guns with LCMs are used in up to a quarter of gun crimes, but it is not clear how often the outcomes of gun attacks depend on the ability to fire more than 10 shots (the current limit on magazine capacity) without reloading.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:23 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 19,058,072 times
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The M-16 replaced the M14, not the M1. The M1 was 30-06 caliber.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:39 AM
 
Location: San Diego
34,814 posts, read 31,861,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
The OPs link was actually correct...though they tried to distort the truth. ANY rifle cartridge will penetrate the handgun rated vests that cops use. Fortunately, most so-called assault weapons use rounds (.223/5.56, 7.62x39) that are less powerful than the much more common "deer rifle". A .30-06 "deer rifle" is far more powerful than any assault rifle round, and far more lethal. Yet a BAR or Remington 742 (which fire that round and function the same as an "assault weapon", as well as others that are more powerful) were not effected by the Clinton semi-auto ban.
And most of those have a removable mag. The premise of this proposal is so filled with swiss cheese holes.

Plus, they'll never get rid of all the old hard ball ammo.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:40 AM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,060 posts, read 13,912,413 times
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99% of crimes are NOT committed with buyable 'assault weapons"

99% of gang related crimes are done with FULLY AUTOMATIC weapons (ie uzi's), that you cant buy to begin with

the ""assault weapons""" ban does nothing, and did nothing

the problem has never been with the guns....the problem is humans and their tendency towards violence

Last edited by workingclasshero; 02-05-2013 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:45 AM
 
Location: San Diego
34,814 posts, read 31,861,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
99% of crimes are NOT committed with buyable 'assault weapons"

99% of gang related crimes are done with FULLY AUTOMATIC weapons, that you cant buy to begin with

the ""assault weapons""" ban does nothing, and did nothing
Neither did all the watered down stuff they did in CA.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,720 posts, read 25,420,599 times
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The OP is ignoring the conclusions of the most comprehensive analysis of the 1994-2004 ban.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/173405.pdf

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf

Read for yourself, and you will see that it is impossible to claim that the AWB reduced crime.

I think it is most telling that since the AWB was lifted in 2004, the US murder rate continues to drop and is at the lowest level since 1992. Millions of AR-15 style weapons have been sold, yet murder rates continue to drop.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,106,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think4Yourself View Post
When the 1994 Federal assault weapon ban was passed, gun manufacturers took immediate action to 'sporterize' assault weapons that were banned. These changes enabled them to circumvent the law with new models that were legal. Opponents of the assault weapon (AW) argue that kept the law from being a useful tool for crime.

Critics point to FBI crime statistics before and after the AW ban as evidence it was ineffective. But that's a not so clever attempt to show cause and effect. It diverts attention from data that shows the ban was effective.

To get an accurate picture of the effect of the assault weapon ban, you have to look at data about assault weapons used in crimes, not overall crime trends. The relevant set of data is gun traces by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) -- guns that were used in crimes, including assault weapons.

The Department of Justice funded a study of ATF gun trace data to produce a report on the effectiveness of the assault weapons ban. The report is "Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003", July 2004.

Figure 6-1 is Police Recoveries of Assault Weapons Reported to ATF (1990-2002). Section 6.2.2.1 has a further explanation of figure 6-1: Quote:

Crime Gun Solutions LLC, a firm of former law enforcement officials, is a leading source of crime-gun expertise. It reported
The government funded an earlier study of the AW ban that issued a report in 2001. It said deaths from firearms were increasing during the the 1980s and peaked in 1993 at 39,595. The Brady Law and the Assault Weapons Act went into effect in 1994. Following that, firearm deaths per year dropped to 29,573 in 2001, a drop of 25% from the 1994 level.

Data points (1999 and 2000 gun traces)

ATF 2000 general findings
ATF 1999 general findings
Maybe you should see what happened after the ban ended? If the ban was really effective than the stats would show an increase in crimes with such weapons... which didn't happen.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Where they serve real ale.
7,249 posts, read 6,632,576 times
Reputation: 3497
It's funny how no one seems to want to deal with the actual issues I raised and instead just vomit out the same tired old talking points. I guess independent thinking just isn't some people's strong point.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:15 AM
 
510 posts, read 765,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think4Yourself View Post
It's funny how no one seems to want to deal with the actual issues I raised and instead just vomit out the same tired old talking points. I guess independent thinking just isn't some people's strong point.
In a sense there never really was a ban. Gun manufacturers tweaked a model here and there and kept on selling. The shelves at gun stores still had all the 'evil black rifles', just some had the words "pre-ban" written on the sticker and went way up in price. You could still go into the stores and buy basically the same stuff. The largest ban was from Bush1, which eliminated all foreign 'assualt weapons' and is still enacted. Guess what....some companies tweaked a feature and they became sporting rifles or whatever....and you can get them. Some set up US companies and sell the tweaked version. Before and after that ban you can get (or get a copy) of nearly anything from FN, SteyrAug, HK, Norinco, Saiga, etc.
The ban you reference didn't make a little police fairy come down and hide all the 'assualt weapons', they were still around. Still being used by millions for protection, target shooting and hunting.
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