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actually most european countries have WORSE debt than us
our national debt (around 16.6 trillion is about 100.2% of our GDP (16 trillion)
italy 140% of its gdp
greece 167% of its gdp
gremany 167% of its gdp
spain its debt is 177% of its GDP
norway 210% of its gdp
finland 215% of its gdp
portugal 231% of its gdp
france 245% of its gdp
sweden 269% of its gdp
denmark 308% of its gdp
belguim 326% of its gdp
netherlands 369% of its gdp
switzerland 379% of its gdp
UK 428% of its gdp
ireland 1305% of its gdp.....number #1
I can only assume you are using public plus private debt as a p% of GDP, not national debt. Please check your source. The numbers above look way out of wack for national debt.
I don't disagree with your sentiment, just your argument. An unemployment rate is an unemployment rate the percentage of a population whose working aged population is out of work.
If that population is 100, or 1,000,000, 10% is 10% and is directly comparable with any other population sample.
No, each State defines unemployment differently.
In the US, to be counted as "unemployed" you must meet all of the following requirements....
1] You must want to work; and
2] You must be available to work (meaning not incarcerated, not hospitalized etc etc etc etc); and
3] You must have applied for a job in the four weeks prior to the survey (conducted on the 16th of each month).
The change to US unemployment came in 1994, when #3 was changed from "Have you applied for a job in the last 12 months?" to the present "Have you applied for a job in the last 4 weeks?"
That is false and contradictory, but then it does come from the leftist "Think Progress" funded by George Soros.......don't you want to give him more money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
Still, austerity does not make much sense, either. If a country is spending too much, it should cut back when it is doing well, not when it is in trouble already, as austerity will only worsen the trouble.
And what will happen if no austerity measures are taken?
You're already taxing the hell out of people; foreign banks have cut you off and won't loan money; and foreign investors will not buy your treasury securities.
So where do you get money?
Do you paint yourself blue, dance around oak trees and hope the money fairy comes?
The only other possible option -- not available to all States --- is printing excess money.....creating Monetary Inflation, and bringing on even more problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
There is no point in firing civil servants for instance. The money saved there, will have to be spent elsewhere to fight soaring unemployment.
There is a point.....the Laws of Economics.
If you violate the Laws of Economics --- by hiring people who should not be working in jobs that should not exist --- then you deserve whatever punishment you get.
The unemployment level is whatever the Laws of Economics says it should be for a particular economy --- you can't win --- and trying to interfere by violating the Laws of Economics only causes additional suffering for people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
The biggest problem by far is the Euro. It brought about the northern cost level, but did not bring about the northern income level. Thus there is a lot of poverty.
There's no poverty there, and the Euro is not at fault.
What was their excuse before the Euro?
I'm in the Costa Brava lounging on the beach at Lloret de Mar drinking double-shot Bloody Mary's for 40 Pesetas.
And what was 40 Pesetas? Gosh, a whopping $0.32. My 1,500 Peseta per night hotel room on the beach and one block from Sgt Pepper's (where the Brits hung out -- obviously) was only $12.
How many times did Italy devalue the Lira before the Euro?
You might want to look at that.....the Euro is not at fault.
Monetarily...
I don't think there is a real solution, no matter what Portugal does or doesn't do. The centrist government is in trouble already, many doubt it will survive till the next elections. Once it is gone, there will be a left government again, some of the left parties openly advocated leaving the EU and the Euro. And they get support from some independent experts, people who are not scared of speaking their minds.
The Euro is a big problem, it may be OK for Germany, but not for Portugal. Actually, the northern countries are not unhappy about the problems down here as these keep the Euro from rising, which would hurt their exports. After all, Germany is an export junkie.
Whatever the situation was before the Euro, countries should have improved things from there instead of introducing the Euro. When one small country such as Portugal with its own currency is in trouble, it is much easier to help it and turn things around. But with the Euro Europe has become one big vulnerable ship, like the Titanic.
One problem is that there is no spirit of unity among people in this country. This country is broke, still many people continue to cling to their privileges and incomes, as if nothing were wrong. People are not honest enough to simply admit that they have too much in times when many have too little.
If I were the government I would use this situation to correct wrong tendencies of the past, for instance the rampant inequality.
For instance I would simply cap all pensions beyond a certain reasonable amount. There is no reason for any old person in this country to get 4000 Euros a month. I would cut it to 1500 Euros max., not a cent more. Same for the income of those still working.
I would slash the defense sector to a symbolic size, this country does not need a military.
Within Europe this country is a developing country, it should stop trying to play in the major league, but instead concentrate on basic things.
That is false and contradictory, but then it does come from the leftist "Think Progress" funded by George Soros.......don't you want to give him more money?
No, you can't just say, "oh, this is a leftist site, so nothing they said can be true." If you claim it is untrue, you have to show how it is untrue -- not just claim that the information is invalid because it's a liberal source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
And what will happen if no austerity measures are taken?
You're already taxing the hell out of people; foreign banks have cut you off and won't loan money; and foreign investors will not buy your treasury securities.
So where do you get money?
Do you paint yourself blue, dance around oak trees and hope the money fairy comes?
The only other possible option -- not available to all States --- is printing excess money.....creating Monetary Inflation, and bringing on even more problems.
As I have said many times, when the economy is depressed due to a liquidity trap, adding to the money supply does not create inflation. Our last five years is direct proof.
Also, you have just shown why it is very advantageous to have your own currency. Those on the Euro cannot decide to increase the money supply, while those that do, can.
On the last two paragraphs, that's what lack of demand is all about that calls for government stimulus (both fiscal and monetary.) If companies were investing and consumers were buying, there would be an economic downdraft.
On the first paragraph, this graph discredits it:
No it doesn't as UK has not been austere at all. Also I wasn't talking about the US. I was talking about other non austere European countries such as UK, and France who has not experienced growth despite not cutting.
Your model is too simple, its not just about government stimulus to compensate for the recession. That is why Europe is doing so badly, because they don't take into account other economic effects, and southern Europe can't afford stimulus.
You can argue that Germany should give more, but Germany is only concerned about their own interest. Because of that there is no money in southern europe, and they should start concerning themselves about other economic effects.
As I feel your post was a little silly I am just going to repost.
Quote:
You anti-austerity people. Have you noticed that other European countries who do very little austerity has also seen declining GDP?
What a lot of people don't seem to get is that there are more variables than government spending. Some other things that is destroying southern Europe is a silent capital flight, low investment and a loss of confidence in the future.
If a job is going to be created, someone needs to do an investment. But why would you invest in a uncertain country. Also, banks are not going to give out loans if people are taking their money out of the bank. This issue is a lot more complicated than austerity or stimulus.
As I have said many times, when the economy is depressed due to a liquidity trap, adding to the money supply does not create inflation. Our last five years is direct proof.
What makes you think one data point is sufficient? UK had a massive stimulus program, and that stimulus program did not lead to growth like it did in America, rather it lead to stagflation.
Calmlon, Greece and other Southern European nations can't use monetary stimulus because they don't control their currency, like the US can.
The claim that European countries real haven't effected austerity is kind of laughable. It's not like they themselves are denying it. It's widely known in those countries.
No, you can't just say, "oh, this is a leftist site, so nothing they said can be true." If you claim it is untrue, you have to show how it is untrue -- not just claim that the information is invalid because it's a liberal source.
As I have said many times, when the economy is depressed due to a liquidity trap, adding to the money supply does not create inflation. Our last five years is direct proof.
Also, you have just shown why it is very advantageous to have your own currency. Those on the Euro cannot decide to increase the money supply, while those that do, can.
We do not have severe inflation because US dollar is reserve currency. We just export most of inflation abroad. But we still have some (not small) inflation (printing huge amounts of money), and it will grow as world will diminish using $.
The "disaster for Europe" was irresponsible fiscal policies by the governments which now find themselves on the brink of financial collapse. If I were the lender to save a nation by bailing it out I would demand some austerity, also. Pay me now, or pay me later ... but there are always reactions to our actions. I've listened to Paul Krugman talk about stopping all of the austerity measures, at home and abroad. He thinks we're on a wrong course. Time will tell.
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