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Old 02-11-2013, 06:32 PM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,522,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
You are purposely evading the point, the ATF already has access for inspection, local law enforcement had access to the ATF records in the past. Federal agencies have always shared information in the past, local law enforcement could obtain the information in the past and did not need to show probable cause, the Tiahrt amendment took away access, it had nothing to do with a 4th amendment issue.

So tell me, simple question, what was the point of the Tihart Amendment, what problem were they solving??
It solved the huge problem that other law enforcement agencies were accessing private information not related to their investigation and without the due process of the law, similar to warrantless search. It was a loophole that we must close, and I am glad they did close it.

Again for the probably the fourth time, if LEO has probable cause, they can go through a judge to obtain access to this information pertain to their investigation. Why is that a problem? Same logic applies to every aspect of law enforcement.

Last edited by lifeexplorer; 02-11-2013 at 06:40 PM..
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Long Island
57,060 posts, read 26,024,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
It solved the huge problem that other law enforcement agencies were accessing private information not related to their investigation and without the due process of the law, similar to warrantless search. It was a loophole that we must close, and I am glad they did close it.

Again for the probably the fourth time, if LEO has probable cause, they can go through a judge to obtain access to this information pertain to their investigation. Why is that a problem? Same logic applies to every aspect of law enforcement.

There really was no problem, and for the last time it was not private information as the ATF had the right to inspect. Tiahrt solved a problem that didn't exist, no record of abuse by local LE, just a paranoia by the congressman that LE was going to improperly regulate. We can agree to disagree.


When the OP started this thread he indicated this was an area for middle ground, sure doesn't appear that is the case. The only suggestions I heard were that the ATF needs to do a better job and they need more funding.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:28 PM
 
8,391 posts, read 6,284,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
Regarding points 1 and 2, why have I not heard one single gun grabber come out and address these? I've heard plenty about #3 in this list (background checks, see link), and of course those evil assault rifles, but nothing about the first two, which based on my research completely dwarf all else, as far as criminals having access to guns is concerned.



What we're looking at here is enforcement of current laws, plain and simple. It's staring you in the face. The VAST majority of gun crime is committed by people who already can not own guns under current law, acquired through the sources above. And you don't need to tell me that the ATF's hands are tied. I know they are. But if that's really your concern, why do I not hear about it? Ever.

My theory? It's not about solutions, it's about a nice tidy package that you can push through. That's the most easy and efficient way feel good about yourself, actual results be damned, and it doesn't require any actual thinking. Thinking makes the brain hurt after all. YMMV.

Fact Sheet: Illegal gun trafficking arms criminals & youth « Gun Victims Action Council

Liberals do want these things enforced but the NRA doesn't want gun sellers being prosecuted nor does the NRA want gun sells tracked in order to get a trace on where these guns are being sold.

You should inform yourself.

The NRA and gun nuts are against these kinds of investigations into gun sellers.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:37 PM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,853,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
Liberals do want these things enforced but the NRA doesn't want gun sellers being prosecuted nor does the NRA want gun sells tracked in order to get a trace on where these guns are being sold.

You should inform yourself.

The NRA and gun nuts are against these kinds of investigations into gun sellers.
Please. Anyone who supports background checks and then some (which the VAST majority of gun owners do) should support something being done about this. I really don't care what the NRA wants; I can think for myself.

I'm plenty informed, I've followed this from day one and seen nothing but posturing and incoherent arguments coming from anti-gun liberals. Nothing sensible, nothing about actually enforcing laws which as I have demonstrated could have a substantial effect here.

When you all (and your politicians) give this one iota of attention without me having to beat it out of you by calling out your hypocrisy, then I'll back it, as long as it's sensible and doesn't trample on gun rights simply for the sake of trampling on gun rights.

I mean please do feel free to direct me to some of this outcry, as I really don't have the time to wade through thousands of articles and forum posts of fabrication and lies about fully automatic weapons.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Long Island
57,060 posts, read 26,024,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
Please. Anyone who supports background checks and then some (which the VAST majority of gun owners do) should support something being done about this. I really don't care what the NRA wants; I can think for myself.

I'm plenty informed, I've followed this from day one and seen nothing but posturing and incoherent arguments coming from anti-gun liberals. Nothing sensible, nothing about actually enforcing laws which as I have demonstrated could have a substantial effect here.

When you all (and your politicians) give this one iota of attention without me having to beat it out of you by calling out your hypocrisy, then I'll back it, as long as it's sensible and doesn't trample on gun rights simply for the sake of trampling on gun rights.

I mean please do feel free to direct me to some of this outcry, as I really don't have the time to wade through thousands of articles and forum posts of fabrication and lies about fully automatic weapons.
I think any sane person would agree this is a problem, anti or pro gun, this cannot continue.

What do you think should be done.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:50 PM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,853,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
There really was no problem, and for the last time it was not private information as the ATF had the right to inspect. Tiahrt solved a problem that didn't exist, no record of abuse by local LE, just a paranoia by the congressman that LE was going to improperly regulate. We can agree to disagree.

When the OP started this thread he indicated this was an area for middle ground, sure doesn't appear that is the case. The only suggestions I heard were that the ATF needs to do a better job and they need more funding.
What the ATF needs to do is collect the data on these guns used in crimes (which can already be done now as it stands), investigate the dealers based on some standard of probable cause, and have the ability to shut down dealers who show a pattern of not being able to produce the proper records and documentation for these sales, without it being dragged on for years in court as it is now.

The ATF has more than enough manpower and funding to investigate 1.2% of FFL dealers.

This can be done without any type of 4th amendment issues like the other poster is talking about.

To be honest, I haven't done all the research necessary to make any type of solid plan here. I just know that this is a problem and it is not being addressed.

As far as dealing with straw purchasers, that is much more difficult as well. And most of what I've read puts straw purchases at the top of the list, well above FFLs.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:09 PM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,853,557 times
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Quote:
NICS background check records are still destroyed within 24 hours
Fine by me. These background check records do not contain the serial number of the firearm being purchased; they are practically useless except for the purpose of some bureaucrat being able to know if you bought gun(s) at some point in time.

Quote:
ATF still does not have the power to require dealer inventory checks to detect lost and stolen guns
I'm more concerned with ATF's inability to shut down dealers who show patterns of suspicious behavior than their inability to demand random inventory checks. If the problem is as isolated as it seems to be, this is a better way to go.

Quote:
State and local authorities are still restricted from using trace data to fully investigate corrupt gun dealers and traffickers
I don't see the purpose of this restriction. Although I think it would be more logical to leave this in the hands of the ATF.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Del Rio, TN
39,809 posts, read 26,403,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
What the ATF needs to do is collect the data on these guns used in crimes (which can already be done now as it stands), investigate the dealers based on some standard of probable cause, and have the ability to shut down dealers who show a pattern of not being able to produce the proper records and documentation for these sales, without it being dragged on for years in court as it is now.

The ATF has more than enough manpower and funding to investigate 1.2% of FFL dealers.

This can be done without any type of 4th amendment issues like the other poster is talking about.

To be honest, I haven't done all the research necessary to make any type of solid plan here. I just know that this is a problem and it is not being addressed.

As far as dealing with straw purchasers, that is much more difficult as well. And most of what I've read puts straw purchases at the top of the list, well above FFLs.
I'm not sure that dealing with straw purchasers is such a difficult thing to do. If a gun purchased from a legit FFL is used in a crime, the original purchaser can be tracked. If the person that used it to commit a crime is that person's relative or boyfriend, arrest and charge that person. A strawman sale is a federal felony punishable by 10 years in prison. Lock up some wives/girlfriends that are buying guns for prohibited people and see how quickly things change.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Long Island
57,060 posts, read 26,024,198 times
Reputation: 15527
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
What the ATF needs to do is collect the data on these guns used in crimes (which can already be done now as it stands), investigate the dealers based on some standard of probable cause, and have the ability to shut down dealers who show a pattern of not being able to produce the proper records and documentation for these sales, without it being dragged on for years in court as it is now.

The ATF has more than enough manpower and funding to investigate 1.2% of FFL dealers.

This can be done without any type of 4th amendment issues like the other poster is talking about.

To be honest, I haven't done all the research necessary to make any type of solid plan here. I just know that this is a problem and it is not being addressed.

As far as dealing with straw purchasers, that is much more difficult as well. And most of what I've read puts straw purchases at the top of the list, well above FFLs.

Good suggestions, seems like these things should have been put into place already. Presently the ATF is restricted from inspecting a dealer twice in the same year and many dealers transfer the business to another relative, that needs to change. It's still not clear if the 1% are repeat offenders or a moving target, if they are repeat offenders I could not imagine why the ATF would not be able to shut them down. The ATF needs more staff for enforcement, 5000 employees and only a few hundred inspecting FFL's, they have other responsibilities.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:40 PM
 
8,391 posts, read 6,284,397 times
Reputation: 2314
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
Please. Anyone who supports background checks and then some (which the VAST majority of gun owners do) should support something being done about this. I really don't care what the NRA wants; I can think for myself.

I'm plenty informed, I've followed this from day one and seen nothing but posturing and incoherent arguments coming from anti-gun liberals. Nothing sensible, nothing about actually enforcing laws which as I have demonstrated could have a substantial effect here.

When you all (and your politicians) give this one iota of attention without me having to beat it out of you by calling out your hypocrisy, then I'll back it, as long as it's sensible and doesn't trample on gun rights simply for the sake of trampling on gun rights.

I mean please do feel free to direct me to some of this outcry, as I really don't have the time to wade through thousands of articles and forum posts of fabrication and lies about fully automatic weapons.
Again, you aren't paying attention if you are looking for why these policies aren't pursued the ONLY groups standing in the way are the NRA, gun nuts who support the NRA, and the politicians who support the NRA and gun nuts.

Pretending that liberals would be against those ideas or have not mentioned those ideas is just uninformed nonsense. Carry on.
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