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But Jesus wasn't talking about self when he said: "those who draw the sword will die by the sword", essentially preaching AGAINST the idea. It would be hypocritical of Him to preach arming self and preaching to love the enemy and to pray for those who persecute you.
Really? And you've studied this passage and it's theological implications in depth, I guess.
Here's something to ponder, from theologians who are probably much more qualified to spout off about this than either you or I:
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Shall perish with the sword - Instead of απολουνται, shall perish, many excellent MSS., versions, and fathers, have αποθανουνται, shall die. The general meaning of this verse is, they who contend in battle are likely, on both sides, to become the sacrifices of their mutual animosities. But it is probably a prophetic declaration of the Jewish and Roman states. The Jews put our Lord to death under the sanction of the Romans - both took the sword against Christ, and both perished by it. The Jews by the sword of the Romans, and the Romans by that of the Goths, Vandals, etc. The event has verified the prediction - the Jewish government has been destroyed upwards of 1700 years, and the Roman upwards of 1000. Confer with this passage, Psalm 2:4, Psalm 2:9; Psalm 110:1, Psalm 110:5, Psalm 110:6. But how came Peter to have a sword? Judea was at this time so infested with robbers and cut-throats that it was not deemed safe for any person to go unarmed. He probably carried one for his mere personal safety.
For all they that take the sword ... - This passage is capable of different significations.
1. They who resist by the sword the civil magistrate shall be punished; and it is dangerous, therefore, to oppose those who come with the authority of the civil ruler.
2. These men, Jews and Romans, who have taken the sword against the innocent, shall perish by the sword. God will take vengeance on them.
3. However, the most satisfactory interpretation is that which regards it as a caution to Peter. Peter was rash. Alone he had attacked the whole band. Jesus told him that his unseasonable and imprudent defense might be the occasion of his own destruction. In doing it he would endanger his life, for they who took the sword perished by it. This was probably a proverb, denoting that they who engaged in wars commonly perished there.
Mississippi is the most violent state after Lousiana.
And how does that apply here? I was stating that every time "anti-gunners" say there will be more violence or "blood in the streets" when gun regulations are loosened or eliminated, they are proven wrong almost every time.
To further expand on my previous post, local Memphis restaurant owners were completely against concealed carry even though some of them owned restaurants 5 miles south in Mississippi that allowed concealed carry in the restaurant. It was such a non-issue in a neighboring state that they never thought to check the laws of a state where they set up a restaurant.
He was telling them to survive in a world where evil exists. He was sending them out into the countryside, and once outside the city gates there were robbers who would slit their throats without hesitation.
The sad thing is, most of you actually believe this. The question is, why? Jesus wasn't suggesting to his disciples to be armed and ready, and certainly not loaded to the gills. Was He? Or did I miss that part in the scriptures?
Why what? Why did he send them to places like India, Rome, and modern-day Eastern Europe, places where barbarians ruled and the law was non-existent? I don't know the answer to that. Why do I believe that there were robbers who would slit their throats without hesitation? That's a matter of historical fact. And no, I do not believe he was instructing his disciples be "loaded to the gills", ready to use force at the slightest provocation. He specifically scolded Peter for doing just that before healing the guard injured by Peter. There is a huge difference between being Jesus telling them to go "loaded to the gills" and suggesting they possess a weapon they could use for personal defense.
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Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
Now try explaining why He said... two swords? "enough". Much less try to explain why He said... "those who live by the sword, die by it".
You all are simply trying to justify your position on arms, that it was something Jesus preached for. Really?
Why were two swords enough? Robbers are lazy (otherwise they'd get a job) and generally don't go after armed groups. If robbers saw swords amongst the group they'd leave them alone. As for explaining the second passage, see my earlier post for the entire passage and my explanation. Or actually read KathrynAragon's explanation, the one this specific post of yours is replying to. Hers is even better than mine.
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Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
But Jesus wasn't talking about self when he said: "those who draw the sword will die by the sword", essentially preaching AGAINST the idea. It would be hypocritical of Him to preach arming self and preaching to love the enemy and to pray for those who persecute you.
I disagree that it's hypocritical. Jesus had a reason to die on the cross, but he wanted his followers to live to spread His word. In that time and place, that meant you either traveled in a large group with armed guards (armed = they carried weapons), you carried a weapon personally, or you traveled around with the Son of God who could resurrect you. You can argue peace and love all you want, but the reality is that evil existed then and it exists today.
Speaking of "evil", let's look at the entire passage you're referring to. It's from the Sermon on the mount:
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38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
I've already mentioned this a few pages back, but the Christian principles of not resisting evil, of "turn the other cheek", "love your enemies", and "pray for them which persecute you" are NOT incompatible with being willing to defend your life and the lives of your loved ones. If I'm in an argument and someone "smites my cheek", that's no reason to shoot him. The Christian thing to do would be to turn the other one; either way, shooting in that situation would be murder. If someone is stealing my truck that's no reason to shoot him. The penalty for theft is not death.
I don't know if I'd say that I "love my enemies", but I can't think of anyone I specifically hate. I know my ex-wife considers me her enemy and hates me, and her mother absolutely loathes the fact that I am consuming oxygen, but I do not hate them and I DO pray for them (they are the mother and grandmother of my children, and my ex-mother-in-law has serious health problems). But either way, hatred should have nothing to do with personal defense.
Ultimately, I've never read anything in the Bible where Jesus (or anyone else) said, "If a robber cometh at thee with a sword, raise your arms and let him runeth you through." If you know of such a passage, please let me know.
[ETA:] This has gone way off topic and is worthy of a thread in the Religion forum. So to get a little on topic, the law in question simply removes a restriction on rights and personal choice. Whether or not you believe Jesus would be packing heat today (I believe he would not, but I believe Peter would) is irrelevant. As long as the people in question can legally possess weapons on the street outside of the church, the State has no business restricting the possession of weapons inside the church. The original restriction infringes on both the 1st AND the 2nd amendments and should be removed.
If you have a concealed carry permit it is no one else's business if you carry during a church service. I suspect Jesus didn't carry a firearm, I doubt that he owned a fire extinguisher either, but that is no reason for any of us to not carry a firearm if we wish to carry one. Before I retired I carried a handgun on my person when I was working on a security system in a school. I didn't charge extra because I was working in a hazardous area, if I were still working today there would be an extra change for working in a school or any government owned building.
I guess Christians need to carry weapons for their jihad.
BTW, you are right on target with your statement. "Two hands working, accomplish more than a thousand clasped in prayer." Anonymous
As a Christian, I haven't been "summoned" to any sort of jihad, nor do I expect to be.
However, I will protect my family if someone attacks them - and get up the next morning and eat a full breakfast with absolutely no sense of guilt.
And sleep the sleep of the innocent that night.
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