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I don't want to take your guns... I swear. I do want large clips to be limited and mandatory background checks to be expanded.
Since the second amendment uses the words "well regulated", and regulation has before been affirmed by the Supreme Court-- How can anyone claim that it would be unconstitutional to limit large clips and institute mandator background checks?
Before I offer an answer to your question, please justify the limit you seek to impose in the OP.
Firston the size of the magizines.
Since we know that these large capasity weapons are used in less than 2% of murders, why do you think banning them will stop any amount of crime?
The fact is, all of the killings where these guns were used, the killers had access to other weapons and would have been in a position to do the same amount of damage with a different type of gun.
The fact is, millions of these weapons are owned by law abiding citizens yet these weapons are used in a very low number of killings.
NOT ONE weapon on the Assault Weapons ban is listed in the top 10 most frequintly used for violence list. NOT ONE.
Further, the FBI has clearly stated that the previous Assault Weapons ban did NOTING to prevent or lower crime rates.
So if your motive is not to reduce crime, prey tell, what is your motive in removing this valuable resource from law abiding citizens?
lifeexplorer, hey another comment/question for you in response to the post above. To me, it's great to learn of those safety regulations and laws.......
.....but for those who argue that "shall not be infringed" means precisely that: NO infringement whatsoever, why is it ok to have the reg's currently in place, but some people (not necessarily you) get their britches in a wad when someone raises the possibility of additional regs/laws?
Do some of you think there should be NO regulations whatsoever? zip, zilch, nada?
This is not an attack --- I'm just trying to learn and make some sense of all this.
I can’t answer for Lifeexplorer, but I have posed some questions.
The heart of the matter for me is, I am fine with sensible regulation that provides real benefit to society. I am not ok with regulation that is simply designed to make us feel better without really understanding the consequences.
In the case of magazine limits, we have a solid body of evidence that shows clearly that this will have no positive impact on murder rates. The FBI has stated that the previous Assault Weapons Ban that included a magazine size limit did not impact murder rates. We know what guns are used in murders and we know that these guns and their high capacity magazines represent a very small percentage of weapons used in crimes.
We also know that these firearms are owned by literally tens of millions of Americans who use them legally for any number of reasons.
Since we know that regulation that restricts magazine size has no impact on crime, the only impact possible is a negative impact to law abiding citizens in further restriction of their liberty and ability to protect themselves.
Or turning it into a bomb to try and take out Time Square.
Due to the number of people killed by vehicles converted to bombs in this country, I demand a mental health screening for anyone who wishes to purchase a car. We must also force the buyer to go to an authorized auto dealer and pay a fee to both the dealer and the government to have a mandatory background check performed, even if they're buying the car from another private party. Finally, if the vehicle is capable of traveling over 75mph or has a fuel capacity over 10 gallons, one must obtain a special federal license to own it, pay an extra $200 tax, get fingerprinted, surrender their 4th Amendment rights and wait several months for a separate background check to be performed.
Let’s take it a step further.
More people are killed every year by accidentally ingesting poison in their homes than are murdered. My murder, I mean all killings of all types including firearms, knives, broken bottles, and feet.
Maybe we should require a license to purchase household bleach?
More people die from falls than from all murders. How about we require a licensing process that includes classes etc to purchase/own a ladder.
When you talk about accidental death a person is vastly more likely to drown than be accidentally killed by a gun but we never hear about a need to license pool owners.
I can’t answer for Lifeexplorer, but I have posed some questions.
The heart of the matter for me is, I am fine with sensible regulation that provides real benefit to society. I am not ok with regulation that is simply designed to make us feel better without really understanding the consequences.
In the case of magazine limits, we have a solid body of evidence that shows clearly that this will have no positive impact on murder rates. The FBI has stated that the previous Assault Weapons Ban that included a magazine size limit did not impact murder rates. We know what guns are used in murders and we know that these guns and their high capacity magazines represent a very small percentage of weapons used in crimes.
We also know that these firearms are owned by literally tens of millions of Americans who use them legally for any number of reasons.
Since we know that regulation that restricts magazine size has no impact on crime, the only impact possible is a negative impact to law abiding citizens in further restriction of their liberty and ability to protect themselves.
Thanks for your sincere, non-attacking answer!
I think a lot of us who are not familiar with guns have this image of "high capacity magazine" (that we have probably developed from watching violent movies!) where bad guys have these guns that are able to shoot and shoot and shoot, seemingly without end, and we wonder "Why would a regular John Q. Public" need anything like that?
So what does the average good guy, non-criminal gun owner do with "high capacity magazines"? (and to be honest, I don't even know exactly what they means or how many shots can be fired). Just trying to learn more.
More people are killed every year by accidentally ingesting poison in their homes than are murdered. My murder, I mean all killings of all types including firearms, knives, broken bottles, and feet.
Maybe we should require a license to purchase household bleach?
More people die from falls than from all murders. How about we require a licensing process that includes classes etc to purchase/own a ladder.
When you talk about accidental death a person is vastly more likely to drown than be accidentally killed by a gun but we never hear about a need to license pool owners.
Stop it already. It's never about saving lives, saving children, reducing crime, protecting liberty, fighting tyranny, self-defense. None whatsoever.
Last edited by lifeexplorer; 02-20-2013 at 10:07 AM..
I think a lot of us who are not familiar with guns have this image of "high capacity magazine" (that we have probably developed from watching violent movies!) where bad guys have these guns that are able to shoot and shoot and shoot, seemingly without end, and we wonder "Why would a regular John Q. Public" need anything like that?
So what does the average good guy, non-criminal gun owner do with "high capacity magazines"? (and to be honest, I don't even know exactly what they means or how many shots can be fired). Just trying to learn more.
The "high capacity magazine" is a word coined to scare people. In the real world, they are just standard capacity magazines, ranging between 7-30. The real high capacity magazines are actually called "drums", typically holds 100 rounds.
The whole point of limiting the magazine capacity is utterly ridiculous. Limiting magazine capacity puts law abiding citizens in serious danger while do nothing to the criminals.
1. In general, most people can't shoot well under stress such as life and death. Even for police, they score on average 1 in 4 bullets fired.
2. On average, it takes 2-3 rounds to stop a bad guy from harming you or your family. When the bad guy is high on drug or drunk, that round count can go much higher. It's not uncommon for police to shoot 20 to 30 rounds to stop a person.
3. Police have backup while law abiding citizens have to face multiple assailants alone with the only magazine in their gun - how many law abiding citizens would stripe on backup magazines while at home or on the street?
4. Criminals don't follow the magazine limitation law.
Combing these factors, the bare minimum you need when facing ONE criminal, is 10 rounds. Now, who says criminals only come one at a time? And why should law abiding citizens to stick to the minimal while criminals get what they want?
It's such a fantasy for some people who don't understand tactics. Somehow they think limiting magazine capacity would help to reduce mass murder. Unless you cut the magazine capacity to 3, it would do nothing to them.
All the mass murderer has to do is:
1. Shoot
2. Back away while shooting
3. Change magazine at a safe distance from the victims
4. Resume shooting
5. Repeat 1-4.
Remember they will be shooting in a gun free zone, special courtesy of the anti-gun fanatics. Nobody will shoot back and people will be hiding under cover rather than interfering with their magazine changes.
If the murderer is semi-smart, most of them are actually brilliant in terms of their intelligence, they would bring 2 guns at least.
In essence, police don't need high capacity magazines while law abiding citizens absolutely do, particularly given the fact that police has no duty to protect us.
Last edited by lifeexplorer; 02-20-2013 at 10:25 AM..
I think a lot of us who are not familiar with guns have this image of "high capacity magazine" (that we have probably developed from watching violent movies!) where bad guys have these guns that are able to shoot and shoot and shoot, seemingly without end, and we wonder "Why would a regular John Q. Public" need anything like that?
So what does the average good guy, non-criminal gun owner do with "high capacity magazines"? (and to be honest, I don't even know exactly what they means or how many shots can be fired). Just trying to learn more.
I appreciate the civil conversation too!
Let’s start with a gun that would not be covered by a HCM ban.
Let’s say you have a 9mm semi-auto pistol. That would be one of the most owned firearms out there. You have 9 rounds available. To remove the mag, you simply move your thumb to a button that ejects the empty then with your other hand, take a new mag from a bag on your side, and slip it into position then chamber a round. That can be done in 2 seconds.
Compare that to another gun with 3 times the capacity. That means this gun will save you 6 seconds over the course of firing 30 rounds. Now if you are a bad guy like at Sandy Hook, you are not limited much at all. Even over the course of say 300 rounds, that would be 10 30 round mags, vs. 33 mags in a 9mm. so you have saved 46 seconds for reload. Not much at all. There really is no impact to a bad guy trying to kill unarmed people.
Now let’s turn the tables. Let’s say you are a good guy and you are being attacked by 3 different bad guys in your home. Let’s say you have the 9mm with 9 rounds and a couple of reloads.
Imagine your living room and move from there to some other point in 2 seconds. That two seconds can save your life if you are in a serious gunfight with people trying to kill you.
The good guy in a defensive position is hamstrung by that same two seconds that do not matter one bit to the bad guy.
What do good guys need 30 rounds for? Honestly (and I say this with all respect), since I have no desire to change the law, I don’t feel compelled to provide a reason why the law should NOT be changed. Those who want to change the law are the ones that should be required to detail their reasons.
I do not believe a law abiding citizen should be forced to define or explain why they are acting in a manner that is consistent with the laws of the land.
LifeE, looks like we are on the same page. I didnt see your post before I posted. Well said!
I would also add that in every recent case of mass shootings, the killer had multiple firearms in their possession.
In those cases, were weapons listed in the so-called "Assault Weapons Ban" legislation, they also had firearms NOT listed.
There is zero evidence that taking the "assault weapon" would have stopped or even limited the number of people killed.
What we come back to is why do these people want to take guns from the law abiding citizen when they know as well as we do, that the action will have no impact on curbing crime?
The components of the "militia" are spelled out in Federal Codes.
Some of the things which made the "unorganized militia" "well regulated" have been allowed to go away, such as the DCM programs (Director of Civilian Marksmanship), which furnished military weapons and ammunition to gun clubs all across the country to promote marksmanship (the club I was in back in the 1950s got 6 M-1 Garands and several thousand rounds of military ball ammunition every summer).
If the "Unorganized Militia" isn't "well regulated" these days, it is the FAILURE of the Federal Government to obey their own laws regarding the militia!
IIRC, the "Unorganized Militia" is made up of ALL male citizens of the United States between the ages of 17 and 45. If you are in that group, and do not have a weapon, you are technically in violation of the law!
Some State Constitutions (Wyoming, for example) have broader age limits, AND include women! Or, at least, the "male" part is not mentioned, just "citizens of the State".
"The Militia" is well defined in Federal and many State laws! There really can't be any doubt about what it is!
So what does the average good guy, non-criminal gun owner do with "high capacity magazines"?
Train or just shoot targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
(and to be honest, I don't even know exactly what they means or how many shots can be fired). Just trying to learn more.
Standard AR-15 magazines hold 30 rounds. There are 20 round mags that are used when shooting prone (rifle is closer to the ground). There are smaller magazines for hunting that keep you within regulations of some states. Same goes for most other rifles like the AK-47 and the SKS.
Once you get outside of the standard 5.56 chambered AR, then the rounds held by a standard mag vary. A 6.8 SPC chambered AR holds 27 in a standard size magazine. A .458 SOCOM chambered AR only holds 10 rounds.
But 30 rounds is not the limit either. There are 40 rounders that are slightly longer than the standard magazine. Then there are the larger and more expensive 60 and 100 round mags from Surefire. There is the notorious "drum" that was used in the Aurora shooting that holds 100 rounds. Finally, a few companies offer belt fed semi-auto rifles. It is extremely difficult to make it portable though. You normally need someone else to carry the ammo can that can hold upwards of 1,000 rounds.
For semi-auto pistols, the magazine sizes vary with the size of the gun and the round it is chambered in. For 9mm they can range from 15 to 19 rounds as standard. For California, they have "neutered" magazines that only allow 10 rounds to be held. But like rifles, there are some extremely long 30 round magazines and even drums available.
Google "rifle magazine" or "pistol magazine" and look at the images that come up. There are thousands.
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