U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-25-2007, 06:16 PM
 
294 posts, read 398,254 times
Reputation: 39

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnulus View Post
How do you know poor people aren't making an effort? It seems to me certain people are judging the results and concluding that it is a personal problem instead of a systematic or societal problem. Nevermind that sometimes all the best efforts in the world cannot get water from a stone, it is very easy to look at somebody on welfare and say "they aren't trying" or they are lazy.

becasue 2/3rds of my life was spent being poor. while those factors might contribute and make it more difficult does not mean it is not the persons fault as well. I know there are exceptions to the rule, but if there wasnt a defined case of laziness it was definately not the attempt to move up in life. and this for me includes relatives, friends and alot of other people. an dguess what alot of the time it was laziness and all they did was whine about how the man was holding them down, yet they would not attempt to work extra or learn to try and move up....I did, these people pissed away opportunites becasue it was too much for them, they could have moved up but then they would have been out of there comfort zone.

and sometimes those people didnt have the mental of physical capability to move up

I agree that poor people shouldn't be having alot of children. However, how does a rationale society that respects human rights go about helping people in those situations? Depriving their children of food? we are not depriving them, but if people are to stupid or selfish to realize it will put them past there means in supporting those kids. that is there fault, not mine


What is needed is more programs that empower single women to make smarter choices and have more oppurtunities. I have no problem with helping these people make better decsions, I try and help anybody i can, ubt some people are just not that bright or dont want to hear it and i dont trust the govt to make this possible.....really nice in theory, but feasibility wise...hell no

Something Republicans do not like. They only like to talk about sticks and no carrots. that is a liberal biased staement

Besides, it is a huge myth most poor people have lots of kids. Most have less than the general population by a small margin.
Wrong

Most people with large families now days are white and middle class or have some religious perscriptions regarding family size. It is very rare to find a single mother with a half-dozen children now days.

if a single mother (not talking divorcee, or mothers who became single to to other circumstances) had babies on her own without a way to support them then that is too many regardless of numbers.

look if you can find a way to do all these nice things without forcefully taking my and others peoples money then lets hear it..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-25-2007, 06:26 PM
 
294 posts, read 398,254 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
In another thread (that was closed) a poster talked about having been in the military, and how he didn't live high on the hog at the governments expense. (implying that the military doesn't pay well.)

are you crazy...live hi on the hog? i would like to know what branch your hubby was in? air force? seriously what the heck are you thinking...let me guess officers wife? trying being an e-3 whos married and barely being able to afford groceries. it is below poverty level.



As a matter of fact, the Military is one of the greatest examples of American Socialism.

I explained this to you in your DM. you pay for those benefits and they are crappy at best

Every military person, with or without family, is guaranteed a basic level of housing, food and health care. Day care facilities on military bases run about 25% the local cost of daycare (or maybe just in NY.) it is just New york oter places it is about equal Most things on post are far cheaper than you'd get outside. not true, walmart isnt almost always cheaper then base exchanges and commisaries

And from the last time I looked, when my husband was in, the combination of his salary and BAH put us in a far higher income bracket than him working a regular job. That didn't include the free perks.

when i went back in for the war i took a 40,000$ paycut, again your hisband was an officer right...much higher pay scale if that is the case


So when people talk down about socialism, they are talking down the military way of life, which is the greatest example of workable socialism in America.
military benefits are just like any job you get, and maybe the benefits are "better", but you pay for them, just like when you said your husband got BAH, becasue fo rthe most part (lower enlisted ranks which makes up most of the military) the pay is just about nothing

comparing socialism to the military with out stating the facts behind it is just a twist of words....chow hall food sucks, i would rather get my own groceries, housing isnt usually very good (unles syou are higher in the ranks) i would rather have my own place that didnt have a laundry list of rules i couldnt violate with out getting kicked out.

but these are all JOB benefits

funny side note the military is going to contractors to make exchanges, housing and food becasue govt run services suck
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 06:28 PM
 
294 posts, read 398,254 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayannaaaliyah View Post
His whole argument is based off of sterotypes. They all have a pre-conceived notion about what "poor" is without even realizing that the middle class Americans are now drifting into poverty and finding it difficult to make ends meet.
you act like i dont know what exactly is happening..talk about stereo types. my preconcieved notions about the poor are froming being there most of my life
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 06:31 PM
 
294 posts, read 398,254 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PPG View Post
I agree! In another thread this guy was talking to me like he knew me personally. Why has nobody heard the one about people who make assumtions?

yeah i guess i did make assumptions, i apologize, but you say alot of the same "rhetoric" the exact same way as quite a few other people i have heard, and well they are mostly alike...

i will try not to do that again
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 09:56 PM
 
1,352 posts, read 4,219,007 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackie94 View Post
you act like i dont know what exactly is happening..talk about stereo types. my preconcieved notions about the poor are froming being there most of my life
Smackie94, you seem to be set focused on a small percentage of lazy people and that is not the issue. If benefits are limited to 5 years as another poster stated, then that small % of lazy people have 5 years to suck up what they can. The issue is that middle class Americans are falling into poverty, due to no fault of their own. The question is what is the solution to prevent people from slipping into poverty while also dealing with those currently in poverty who seem to have no way out. So please grow up and get off your ridiculous consistent rant about all poor people being lazy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 10:24 PM
 
294 posts, read 398,254 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayannaaaliyah View Post
Smackie94, you seem to be set focused on a small percentage of lazy people and that is not the issue.

that % is what is debatable it is alot larger then people want to admit. i am not saying this is everyones case, and i said earlier some just dont want to leave there compfort bubble to excel....call that what you want. alot are still lazy


If benefits are limited to 5 years as another poster stated, then that small % of lazy people have 5 years to suck up what they can.

five years is alot of money and dont quote me on this...what conditions before they can reapply? when will it stop?

The issue is that middle class Americans are falling into poverty,

although i wont deny its happening, it again is not to the extent that everyone is making it out to be.

due to no fault of their own.

it is partly there fault.

The question is what is the solution to prevent people from slipping into poverty while also dealing with those currently in poverty who seem to have no way out.

there is almost always a way out, just may not be easy and it may take some time facing hardship.

So please grow up and get off your ridiculous consistent rant about all poor people being lazy.
i am about as grown up as i want to be and i gaurentee i am alot more grown up then you are at 21 years old if not older people here, and my ridiculous consistant rant is about as ridiculous as everyone else saying we should help every person in poverty or slipping into poverty. you (this is just a point not an attack, because i dont know your circumstances or care to) may have made it on your own and are not lazy, doesnt mean that others arent.

and for the record I have no problem helping those in need at my own cost, when i can, but i will not be forced to help people especially with no interest in helping themselves. and being lazy consist of not being willing to go the extra mile to get by. i have sacrificed my life and my time with my family not only to make ends meet but to make sure i can ensure my future a little better...

if the govt can come up with a working descent program that helps people truly in need that are so far gone they cannot get by, to get going again and not the people who will exploit the system, and it doesnt cost me a bunch of money (eliminating pork and other crappy not working programs) then by all means..go for it, but expanding benefits will not help and cost alot

i dont disagree with the heart felt utopian views because i think they are wrong, but because they are not feasible especially with a more socialistic govt. human nature will not prevent it from being exploited by ALooot of people.

so in all...yes alot of people are lazy, yes alot of people with exploit the system. the small few who are struggling to get back and just cant...i feel for them, but i am sick of hearing...we cant do it, when alot of them wont try...

lastly...i am all about reforming welfare to achieve the goals of limiting cost and helping those truly in need, and stopping the exploitation of the system,

but to be honest its not my problem....other peoples difficulty, just like it was nobody elses problem when i had difficulty
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,562,462 times
Reputation: 590
Some of you guys don't seem to realize how small the percentage of our tax money is that actually goes towards welfare for the poor. Our largest, primary entitlement programs, Social Security and Medicare, go primarily to the middle class and aren't paid for by progressive taxes, either. We could stop funding TANF completely and most people would barely see a dent in their income taxes, or the national debt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 11:08 PM
 
294 posts, read 398,254 times
Reputation: 39
fish,
could you break that down barney style?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 11:15 PM
 
1,352 posts, read 4,219,007 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackie94 View Post
i am about as grown up as i want to be and i gaurentee i am alot more grown up then you are at 21 years old if not older people here, and my ridiculous consistant rant is about as ridiculous as everyone else saying we should help every person in poverty or slipping into poverty. you (this is just a point not an attack, because i dont know your circumstances or care to) may have made it on your own and are not lazy, doesnt mean that others arent.

and for the record I have no problem helping those in need at my own cost, when i can, but i will not be forced to help people especially with no interest in helping themselves. and being lazy consist of not being willing to go the extra mile to get by. i have sacrificed my life and my time with my family not only to make ends meet but to make sure i can ensure my future a little better...

if the govt can come up with a working descent program that helps people truly in need that are so far gone they cannot get by, to get going again and not the people who will exploit the system, and it doesnt cost me a bunch of money (eliminating pork and other crappy not working programs) then by all means..go for it, but expanding benefits will not help and cost alot

i dont disagree with the heart felt utopian views because i think they are wrong, but because they are not feasible especially with a more socialistic govt. human nature will not prevent it from being exploited by ALooot of people.

so in all...yes alot of people are lazy, yes alot of people with exploit the system. the small few who are struggling to get back and just cant...i feel for them, but i am sick of hearing...we cant do it, when alot of them wont try...

lastly...i am all about reforming welfare to achieve the goals of limiting cost and helping those truly in need, and stopping the exploitation of the system,

but to be honest its not my problem....other peoples difficulty, just like it was nobody elses problem when i had difficulty
Have you heard of spell check I think Fishmonger made an excellent point which should put your mind at ease

BTW - I would never claim to have made it on my own - there are many people in my life (including family) and others whom I've crossed paths with, who have been very instrumental in making me the person I am today. Humility is something you should try sometimes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2007, 11:33 PM
 
2,506 posts, read 7,739,586 times
Reputation: 828
It is your problem, Smackie. Having poor people in a first world economy effects the nation as a whole. They create an underclass of people that will eventually harm our status if left with no safety net. It is cheaper to have welfare than revolution. These are the people we need in our economy, and as part of our society. Look at what happens to the economies (and societies) of nations with no bottom. Mexico isn't so pretty when you leave Acapulco. Is Brazil a better nation for its favelas and kidnappings. It is all created by people with NO hope. In America, Welfare creates the hope that precludes violent dispair.
The amount of money that you (as an average person, I presume) pay for welfare is miniscule. If we want to cut our budget, there are myriad places to start, and Welfare is not one of them. If my presumption was wrong and you do not make an average wage, you CAN afford to help people. Most people aren't lazy when they apply for welfare. It is the most shameful moment in many peoples' lives. Since I doubt that you want to be the person to denote who is lazy and who is genuinely downtrodden, you will have to go out on a limb and trust people. It costs some more, but you are a better person for it. Like I said before, it is ultimately more expensive to not have it.

Stop attacking people for their age. It does nothing for your argument (as it is implies a logical fallacy), and only gets people unneccessairily angry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top