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Old 10-25-2007, 11:39 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,396,728 times
Reputation: 2608

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Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
Alot has been said as to how "evil" America is and how we should help the "poor" and "Lower Classes", but what, pray tell, is the plan?

What is your idea for helping the poor? I want this thread to be a forum for how those on the left of society plan to help the poor. No attacks. No race-baiting. Straight answers
Honest answer? Educate them. Rather than making more and more programs that just hand money to people and send them along the way, use that money and make educational programs that teach people how to balance their budget, how to spend wisely, how to read contracts, how to pick the best health care plans, how to buy a car and learning the difference between a "need" and a "want".

Offer job assistance programs that teach people how to look for a job, dress for it, and interview for it. Show people how to build a set of goals and break them up into obtainable pieces. Help people help themselves.

Thats what I think should be done. Depending on where you are to be honest, a lot of places already do this. The problem is that as long as we continue to give people the option to live off the system, they will never take advantage of the tools. Take their safety jacket away from them, tell them you will teach them how to swim. Then, let them make the choice to sink or swim.

Edit:

Obviously that would be for people who have already went through the educational system. Keep those programs for a while, but then start making sure these concepts are all taught in the schools. Eventually, you can mix them into the school system and reduce the cost for even those programs.
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Old 10-25-2007, 11:45 PM
 
294 posts, read 398,592 times
Reputation: 39
i choose not to use spell check because i am usually typing in a hurry...and to be honest i am not the best with typing....bad combo....sorry blame it on he california school system.

second part, hence my request for him to break it down barney style. it still doesnt put my mind at ease though, because it will eventually fall on our shoulders especially if that increases (socialized programs). but i would like to know the break down and where the numbers fall...well at least what people think. becasue i am lacking in this exact knowledge.

i dont know who you are, nor do i really care, but telling me to try humility sometime is just about as arrogant and judgemental a statement i have heard. you are no one to question my character, my experiance or my personality. you have no idea of who i really am and what i have done. if you want to try and call me on that or compare life stories...DM me...we could, without fighting, compare notes.

i hate even saying this because its so interweb drama sounding, if you knew me first hand my "arrogance" is actually confidence from alot of wide ranging experiance and that is greatly tempered by my "humility".

if you want to choose not to see my point and only defend yours. leave the insults and say that. by the way i mistook you for another poster in my other response.

so really, that "doing it on your own thing" didnt apply to you ( i have no idea of your status in life while the person i was refering to i know a least a few things). you are lucky you had others to help you along the way...I really didnt have very much help from mine..in fact they were kind of a hindrance. but any "help" i got was from kindness, most things came with a tough lesson in life (even from family) not from some sort of socialistic program. so yeah i did do it "on my own". and yes those were my experiances with the "poor". dont like it...sorry, but that is my reality...I wont sugar coat nor will i change my opinon on it


if you want to debate it or discuss it...shoot...i am listening
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Old 10-26-2007, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,566,891 times
Reputation: 590
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackie94 View Post
fish,
could you break that down barney style?
Sure

TANF costs the federal government around $16-18 billion a year. Sounds huge, right?

http://www.unitedway.org/PublicPolic...etpolicyFS.pdf

Google Image Result for http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/6/64/300px-Fbs_us_fy2007.png

Not really... the federal government is spending about $2.8 trillion in 2007.

18 billion/2.8 trillion = TANF takes up about 0.6% of the federal budget.

Food stamps are around $40 billion

USDA Budget Summary 2006 -- Food, Nutrition, and Consumer Services (broken link)

40 billion/2.8 trillion = 1.4% of the federal budget.

So... you could take away ALL of the Food Stamps and TANF and your income taxes could go down by 2%. Those damn leechin' poor people are making it so hard for us to get by!

Last edited by fishmonger; 10-26-2007 at 12:41 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 12:33 AM
 
294 posts, read 398,592 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan View Post
It is your problem, Smackie.

helping people who wont help themselves is not my problem...please read into what i am saying.

Having poor people in a first world economy effects the nation as a whole. They create an underclass of people that will eventually harm our status if left with no safety net.

I am not arguing this point except for how that safety net works.welfare is not the answer (if you noticed i am not arguing against unemployment although that system needs fixing as well)

It is cheaper to have welfare than revolution.
no its cheaper to do something else then welfare and more effective

These are the people we need in our economy, and as part of our society.

I am not arguing this either. i dont hate them or even dislike them, in fact i would rather be around a hard working poor person them then some rich person.

Look at what happens to the economies (and societies) of nations with no bottom. Mexico isn't so pretty when you leave Acapulco. Is Brazil a better nation for its favelas and kidnappings.
It is all created by people with NO hope.

it is created by a failure of a system, that failure of a system creates no hope. welfare would not fix either place. i have never been to a nice part of either brazil or mexico, and i have been to both.


In America, Welfare creates the hope that precludes violent dispair.

Welfare is part of a failing system, welfare does not create hope. do we need to fix the system..yes, but hand outs are not the answer when somebody is down and out. I dont mean this in a combatative way, have you ever been on welfare...if so did it create hope?

The amount of money that you (as an average person, I presume) pay for welfare is miniscule.

i have been nickel and dimed to death since i started working by every body and everything...every penny i earn counts to me...even a miniscule amount of my money towards a failing system isnt worth it.


If we want to cut our budget, there are myriad places to start, and Welfare is not one of them.

First part- i agree with 110% there is a ton of stuff i would cut including lifetime retirements for senate and congress after one term, congresional pay, lesbian bikers of california, crap art displays, company bailouts, etc etc. welfare needs to be ended and something else put in place that works. something that can help people get progress with some work...not gives them hand outs

If my presumption was wrong and you do not make an average wage, you CAN afford to help people.

no matter what i make, who are you to decide that i can give out more?. who are you to say what i havent given to help, out of straight up generosity? how do you know what i have given on my own accord to help others? my point is if I give of help it will be under my terms, and just so you know..I do, when i can, but under my terms. and the only problem i have with paying any taxes is for FAILING social programs and pork.


Most people aren't lazy when they apply for welfare. It is the most shameful moment in many peoples' lives.

the only argument i have for that is the word "most". I am not denying that some people might truly need it....but its not most.

Since I doubt that you want to be the person to denote who is lazy and who is genuinely downtrodden, you will have to go out on a limb and trust people.

No I dont trust people and i wont trust people, and yes i would evaluate each case and make that distinction if i could

It costs some more, but you are a better person for it. Like I said before, it is ultimately more expensive to not have it.

there are better answers. and having this be the judge of my character is not really fair

Stop attacking people for their age.

I wasnt, i was responding to someone telling me to grow up.

It does nothing for your argument (as it is implies a logical fallacy), and only gets people unneccessairily angry.
and with that person i was thinking she was someone else.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:03 AM
 
Location: New York
2,731 posts, read 2,828,143 times
Reputation: 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackie94 View Post
military benefits are just like any job you get, and maybe the benefits are "better", but you pay for them, just like when you said your husband got BAH, becasue fo rthe most part (lower enlisted ranks which makes up most of the military) the pay is just about nothing.
Um $20K a year is about the same that people make at Walmart. An unlike Walmart employees, they don't have to pay for housing which is easily another $6-7K per year in a small town, and a lot more in more expensive places. So I will completely disagree.

Quote:
chow hall food sucks,
Depends on where you are stationed. Relaxing Jackson serves lobster every week.

Quote:
housing isnt usually very good (unles syou are higher in the ranks)
Ever see housing in NYC for the poor. It is 10 times worse than any military unit I've ever seen.

Quote:
i would rather have my own place that didnt have a laundry list of rules i couldnt violate with out getting kicked out.
Welcome to any Homeowners Association 101 in America.

Quote:
funny side note the military is going to contractors to make exchanges, housing and food becasue govt run services suck
Yes, now they suck, and cost 10 times more. Love that contaminated water in Iraq provided courtesy of Halliburton.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:10 AM
 
Location: New York
2,731 posts, read 2,828,143 times
Reputation: 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Some of you guys don't seem to realize how small the percentage of our tax money is that actually goes towards welfare for the poor. Our largest, primary entitlement programs, Social Security and Medicare, go primarily to the middle class and aren't paid for by progressive taxes, either. We could stop funding TANF completely and most people would barely see a dent in their income taxes, or the national debt.
Precisely. I'd like to spread some reputation, but the system won't allow me.

What is the deal with the reputation rules. I still haven't figured out what "you must spread some reputation around...." What does that mean? What are they telling me to do? Give me error messages that aren't in CODE.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:15 AM
 
Location: New York
2,731 posts, read 2,828,143 times
Reputation: 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Honest answer? Educate them. Rather than making more and more programs that just hand money to people and send them along the way, use that money and make educational programs that teach people how to balance their budget, how to spend wisely, how to read contracts, how to pick the best health care plans, how to buy a car and learning the difference between a "need" and a "want".

Offer job assistance programs that teach people how to look for a job, dress for it, and interview for it. Show people how to build a set of goals and break them up into obtainable pieces. Help people help themselves.

Thats what I think should be done. Depending on where you are to be honest, a lot of places already do this. The problem is that as long as we continue to give people the option to live off the system, they will never take advantage of the tools. Take their safety jacket away from them, tell them you will teach them how to swim. Then, let them make the choice to sink or swim.

Edit:

Obviously that would be for people who have already went through the educational system. Keep those programs for a while, but then start making sure these concepts are all taught in the schools. Eventually, you can mix them into the school system and reduce the cost for even those programs.
Actually, those programs do exists, but their extremely underfunded. Do you know the money available for educational programs (in the forms of vouchers for education for people on unemployment) often runs out in the month of February or March? You want these people to get back to work but deny anyone who didn't apply in January? What if they became unemployed later in the year.

Also, the statistics show that most people who accept public assistance do get off their feet.

But my question or maybe it's just a statement.

I think people deserve more than worrying for decades whether they can pay their rent, or praying that they don't ever get sick when they are working more than 40 hours a week. Just cause they aren't on the dole doesn't mean they are successful out of poverty.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,566,891 times
Reputation: 590
Just to be a little more honest, I'll include ALL of what's considered "welfare and unemployment" spending, as well as Medicaid, in the calculations to give a more accurate assessment of how much of our tax money is going to the poor. However, I would doubt that 100% of what's listed as "welfare and unemployment" goes to the poor... let's see.


United States federal budget, 2007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Total unemployment/welfare spending is $367 billion

Total Medicaid/other types of healthcare spending is $276.4 billion

Add those two together and you get $643.4 billion.

Divide 643.4 billion/2.8 trillion and the percentage is 23% of spending, not all of which goes to the poor.

US tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is about 27%, so the total percentage of GDP that would go "back to the taxpayers" by getting rid of ALL federal aid to the non-elderly poor, ALL unemployment spending, and ALL Medicaid and other health spending (which likely involves medical research funding, subsidies for the non-poor, and unemployment benefits for middle class people) would be about 6-8%. It's not "the poor" who are sucking a large portion of your money through entitlements... rather, it's OLD people who for the most part have worked all their life for what they're getting and what you'll eventually get when you get old, too.

As for TOTAL social welfare spending, for the poor, middle class, and elderly, the figure comes up to about 15% of GDP, or at least it did back in 2001.

Welfare state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which, except for Ireland, is the lowest in the developed world.

Last edited by fishmonger; 10-26-2007 at 10:53 AM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,702,664 times
Reputation: 1029
Would the OP care to take the time to summarize what has been posted to this thread? Has any consensus been reached about answers that address any part of your original question?
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
34,598 posts, read 33,579,817 times
Reputation: 51698
not a lefty but-

1. finish high school
2. don't have a baby unless you are married
3. don't get married until you have a job
4. don't have more kids than you can afford

Teach the above in school and at home and tie it to a future of living in poverty.
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