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Old 10-24-2007, 07:43 PM
 
7,337 posts, read 10,192,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Bush dreams of Cuba w/out Castro.

I dream of an America w/out Bush.
Yes but Bush will finish out his term and head out to pasture as all American Presidents have done.

El Maximo, in direct contrast, has been there since Eisenhower and, given that his health does not do him in, will be there after Bush. Sorry, I will take an elected idiot to an unelected despot.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Embargo is silly. But is not like Fidel does not use it to his advantage. And each time the US was going to end it, Fidel pulled some stunt to make that politically unpalatable.

And believe me, if you actually visited Cuba, you would in no uncertain terms see it for the repressive thugocracy that it is. Its not North Korea or even East Germany. More like Zimbabwe.

Socialismo o Muerto? I would take the muerto.
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:08 PM
 
396 posts, read 619,073 times
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Bay of Pigs is over. The embargo is on-going.
If I told you that I would not come to your house anymore because I did not like the way you decorated, I would be imposing my beliefs on you (Cuba). Then I would say, but I will go to Joe's house, even though his house is decorated just like yours, but he buys a lot of agriculture from me, and I need the money (China).
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:42 PM
 
16,895 posts, read 22,566,171 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Yes but Bush will finish out his term and head out to pasture as all American Presidents have done.

El Maximo, in direct contrast, has been there since Eisenhower and, given that his health does not do him in, will be there after Bush. Sorry, I will take an elected idiot to an unelected despot.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Embargo is silly. But is not like Fidel does not use it to his advantage. And each time the US was going to end it, Fidel pulled some stunt to make that politically unpalatable.

And believe me, if you actually visited Cuba, you would in no uncertain terms see it for the repressive thugocracy that it is. Its not North Korea or even East Germany. More like Zimbabwe.

Socialismo o Muerto? I would take the muerto.
Nothing in my remarks said or implied that I favored Castro over Bush, you've made a leap of logic.

Agree that the embargo is stupid. I think it actually prolongs keeping Castro in power, as he has the embargo to harp on, to run his mouth for hours about how the USA is depriving his suffering Cuban people, that America is trying to hurt Cuba via the embargo. Every time Saddam Hussein needed to rally his sorry nation, he'd cause some sort of provocation with us to have some anti-American nonsense to rant about, rally the people against the great Satan.

Nixon opened China about 35 years ago, driving a wedge between China & the USSR. Trade with China is causing them to behave more like a capitalist nation, and IMO, will cause the Chinese government to morph into something resembling a democracy, or at least something benign. We should've done something POSITIVE with Cuba, like rescind the embargo. They have no say in it, its OUR embargo, if we want to end it at any time, we can, it's totally unilateral on our part, to impose it - or to rescind it. Bimbo politicians keep playing politics with the Cuban ex-pat vote in Miami, playing on the stage like some sort of strong man. The way to marginalize Castro is to talk TO him, not about him, make him irrelevant in the eyes of HIS people.

If we had done away with the embargo years ago, and allowed outside influences into Cuba, then the Cuban people, and the mid-level folks running the regime, would see how they are being had by Castro, and change would've ensued. As it is, the embargo keeps change from happening from within Cuba.

My understanding of the history of this whole thing goes back to our banana republic imperialism plus a large dose of cold war proxyism. We had our listening posts set up in Iran under the Shah so we could contain Soviet expansionism, so the USSR looked for a proxy in our backyard to set up their own listening posts on us. Tit for tat. We were propping up a crude, vicious dictator (Batista), letting him and the Mafia run Cuba as a whorehouse and gambling mecca for the sake of crude Americans - much the same as dirtballs now fly to Thailand for sex tours. The Cuban people were suffering under all this corruption. The USSR supported Castro, and once he got in, the Mafia was out, the Cuban people got health care, infant mortality rates in Cuba dropped to levels BELOW the USA rates, etc. That is old history.

Castro is long overdue to have been moved off stage, but our embargo plays into his hands, makes him look a martyr for standing up to the imperialists in the USA. I can't imagine a worse way to have handled the last 45+ years.

I look forward to Cuba w/out Castro, and to America with Bush. Better days are ahead for all of us.

s/Mike
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Lake Forest, CA
1,773 posts, read 4,894,598 times
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The economic embargo against Cuba is a waste of energy, literally. Does any other country have an economic embargo against Cuba? Can't think of any. Yes, the Castro brothers and the Communist Party have most things going on in their country pretty well under wraps. I don't think that will be the case forever. It's not really for us to change that, but the best thing for our country would be to favor policies that give the people in Cuba a chance to have their own say about the future.
If the embargo were eliminated now, why not think about Cuba as a source for sugar cane ethanol instead of imported middle east oil? Cuba has more sugar cane than almost any other country in the world, except for maybe Brazil. Someone could figure out a deal to get sugar cane distilleries built in Cuba and have ethanol headed into the USA and elsewhere. That would put a lot of money back into the Cuban economy, and if that created more jobs and more opportunities there, it means that people might begin to think more entrepreneurial instead of feeling totally dependent on the government for everything like most do now in Cuba.
Cuba may be sitting on large oil and gas reserves in the gulf of mexico off the northwest coast of Pinar del Rio province. They recently awarded exploration contracts to several international drillers, but of course no US companies were allowed to participate. Oh well, guess we keep buying all that crude from the Saudis and whoever else wants our cash over in the mid east, and then pray the worst won't happen again.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:53 PM
 
1,352 posts, read 3,097,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old biddie View Post
The point is he can make anything sound like the truth. And agreeing with him is what a lot of people did on WMD and the democracy pitch for Iraq. We all know now it was a smoke-screen. And I will let you know that at that time I thought it sounded as ridiculous as this Cuba speech does today.

My point of bringing this up is to shed light that he is doing it again. He is stirring another pot so that he can get something out of it, and spend more of our money.

I just don't think he knows how to live in peace, how to live and let live. Or how to go about doing the right thing without lying to those who would believe him.

We have caused so much trouble. And the people who believe what comes out of this guy's mouth? I really feel sorry for them.
Americans have gotten used to being lied to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Bush dreams of Cuba w/out Castro.

I dream of an America w/out Bush.
Love it

Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
So in other words, Communist China has bought their way into the US.

That's certainly confidence inspiring. And still doesn't explain our policy towards Cuba unless it's merely because Fidel missed a pay-off.
You know a law professor gave me a history lesson on Cuba. In addition to that I lived in Miami for 11 years and after talking with various Cubans and having spent a week in Cuba, I have a totally different outlook than most of you who have posted.

The economic situation in Cuba is primarly the result of the embargo with is political in nature. Our politicians cater to the powerful lobby of ousted Cubans residing in south Florida since Castro's socialist revolution in 1959. The South Florida Cubans have had only one goal in mind and that is to overthrow Castro. Since they control a large bloc of electoral votes, they have great political clout; Congress and all U.S. presidents since 1959 have not dared to cross them. The sale of medicine and food has caused a rise in suffering and even deaths (this was noted by the American Association for World Health).

From what I understand from many Cubans, Castro did a lot to improve the standard of living since he took control. Castro reduced illiteracy from 23% to 4% in a matter of a year; created equity across society, including the equitable distribution of benefits across all sectors of the population; greatly reduced differences in income between the lowest and the highest paid persons; Women have benefited significantly from the revolution as they have educated themselves and entered the labor force in large numbers; differences among Cubans of different races have also been reduced.
created an urban reform whereby there was a halving of rents for Cuban tenants, opportunities for tenants to own their housing, and an ambitious program of housing construction for those living in what they call "shantytowns". New housing, along with the implementation of measures to create jobs and reduce unemployment, especially among women, rapidly transformed the former shantytowns.

The bottom line is, Castro did not cause the dire economic conditions in Cuba - America did and continues to do so, unless the embargo is lifted. Most of the Cubans that were ousted where wealthy Cubans (much like some of you all that always talk of "mememe" "screw the poor") who were oppressing those less fortunate and felt like they had no obligation to reduce the economic gap (pre Castro); they didn't feel that darker skinned Cubans should be allowed a right to education (pre Castro). Darker skinned/lower class Cubans were not allowed to visit the beaches (pre Castro). Sound familiar

Last edited by ayannaaaliyah; 10-24-2007 at 10:53 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:27 PM
 
294 posts, read 267,282 times
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nope,

but what i sthe overall standard of living there....not so good?

have you ever met the political dissidents who ran hrough mine fields for a little freedom have you hear dthe stories told by the cubans and the fear of saying anything bad about castro for fear fo there lives?

i dont see how the leveling out pay between high and low class is good?
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:34 PM
 
294 posts, read 267,282 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by old biddie View Post
Bay of Pigs is over. The embargo is on-going.
If I told you that I would not come to your house anymore because I did not like the way you decorated, I would be imposing my beliefs on you (Cuba).


uh..no you wouldnt be coming over anymore...your beliefs wouldnt be imposed on me....oh well

Then I would say, but I will go to Joe's house, even though his house is decorated just like yours, but he buys a lot of agriculture from me, and I need the money (China).
in the second part..well that is just how it works, an dthat is exactly what is happening wiht china....i dont think its right, but that is the way it is...
personal i think we shoudl cut ties with china...but i am not running the country

the bay of pigs left castro with a bad taste in his mouth over the US. other then that, we have left him alone. othe rthen tough talk on both sides
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:39 PM
 
1,352 posts, read 3,097,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackie94 View Post
nope,

but what i sthe overall standard of living there....not so good?

have you ever met the political dissidents who ran hrough mine fields for a little freedom have you hear dthe stories told by the cubans and the fear of saying anything bad about castro for fear fo there lives?

i dont see how the leveling out pay between high and low class is good?
duh, the overall standard of living is not due to Castro? He is not the one stopping food and medicine from being imported. Prior to the embargo the ousted Cubans were living pretty well however there was oppression/racism towards the darker skinned Cubans. If you were the head of a country and could not import food and medicine, don't you think that the overall standard of living would be reduced??????????????????? THINK, use your COGNITIVE skills (sorry I forgot they deleted that from the public school curriculum many years ago/no child left behind i think)

Yes I've met the many of the political dissidents who ran to America telling the horror stories. What the f*ck did you expect them to say:
we were rich and Castro came in and wanted to create a government where everyone is EQUAL.
Castro took our land and wanted to distribute it evenly amongst ALL Cubans.
Castro wanted us to share.
Castro wanted to ensure free education for ALL Cubans (regardless of skin color).
Castro wanted to ensure free healthcare for ALL Cubans;
Castro wanted EVERYONE to be allowed to go to the beach

Their crying sounds a bit like the upper class supporters in the other forum hollering about their tax dollars being spent on government funded programs.

Last edited by ayannaaaliyah; 10-24-2007 at 11:41 PM.. Reason: edited
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:11 AM
 
1,890 posts, read 3,847,603 times
Reputation: 1060
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackie94 View Post
thats because we cant get into North korea without being smuggled

as far as china....not nearly the best friend, but have more reason to be tolerant of those turds

what is so horrible and reprhensible about the saudi govt??? (keep in mind i am not a big fan of the saudis)
Problems with Saudis? It is a brutal dictatorship. There is NO due process. Suspected criminals are not allowed representation. Torture of prisonsers. Amputations for stealing-which is especially harsh in light of no representation. Stonings/beheadings. Lashes for sexual "crimes". Repression of religious minorities- non-Muslims cannot testify in court. Women are not allowed to testify against men in court. Women cannot drive or ride bicycles in cities. Women are but barred from most forms of employment. Gays are lashed, deported, and sometimes executed. Any dissent form the dictatorship is prohibited, and political enemies regularly "disappear". No freedom of press/speech. Jewish/Christian houses of prayer are not allowed.
Saudi Arabia is one of the worst dictatorships in the world. Far worse than Cuba.
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:16 AM
 
7,337 posts, read 10,192,908 times
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Quote:
Nothing in my remarks said or implied that I favored Castro over Bush, you've made a leap of logic.
So noted. Text is a lousy communicator. I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.
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