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Old 03-12-2013, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7,605 posts, read 4,844,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultor View Post
The Obama doctrine claims the right, it does not preclude signature strikes anywhere in the world.
Was AG Holder's response to Sen. Paul separate from the "Obama doctrine", because Holder's response said "under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States." There are laws that govern when the military can be used within the United States borders.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:59 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,462,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
We already do that. Why is it that the president needs to be able to do it with absolutely no oversight?
I don't agree with this in the first place. But just to answer the question - because nobody has access to the information the President has access to and so his decisions cannot be adequately judged by another in this situation. We could of course set up a body to review such decisions, but as it stands I do not believe anybody does. Many people may have access to some of the information he uses to make his decisions, but I don't believe anybody has access to all of it. Army intelligence may know something the CIA doesn't, who may know something the NSA doesn't, who may know something the FBI doesn't, etc.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:04 PM
 
8,059 posts, read 3,943,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post
Was AG Holder's response to Sen. Paul separate from the "Obama doctrine", because Holder's response said "under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States." There are laws that govern when the military can be used within the United States borders.

CIA and DHS ain't military - both have drones and CIA has already used them in signature strikes in Yemen.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7,605 posts, read 4,844,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
One should know that just because someone can make a claim on the internet it does not make that claim factual.
Its unclear which claim you are referring to, but from the link you just provided.

The request from the lawmakers comes a week after their Senate colleagues remained notably absent from a historic protest questioning the administration's use of drones. Last Wednesday, Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) embarked on a nearly 13-hour filibuster against the confirmation of CIA director nominee John Brennan. Paul expressed opposition to Brennan in part over his claim that the administration wouldn't state unequivocally that the president didn't have the authority to target U.S. citizens on American soil. Paul's stand ultimately led Attorney General Eric Holder to clarify that such an order was not within the president's power.


AG Holder's clarification limited Presidential power to those engaged in combat.


'Does the President have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil?'



So hypothetically American citizens engaged in combat within the borders of the United States could be subject to drone strikes. Which would be within the guide lines and U.S. laws on the use of deadly force.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7,605 posts, read 4,844,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultor View Post
CIA and DHS ain't military - both have drones and CIA has already used them in signature strikes in Yemen.
Is Yemen within the borders of the United States? Sen. Paul's filibuster and AG Holder's response were both dealing about strikes within the borders of the United States.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:18 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,184,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I don't agree with this in the first place. But just to answer the question - because nobody has access to the information the President has access to and so his decisions cannot be adequately judged by another in this situation.
Total crock. It's why we have the Intelligence committee's. You'll note that even Rockefeller is peeved at Obama over this.


Quote:
We could of course set up a body to review such decisions, but as it stands I do not believe anybody does. Many people may have access to some of the information he uses to make his decisions, but I don't believe anybody has access to all of it. Army intelligence may know something the CIA doesn't, who may know something the NSA doesn't, who may know something the FBI doesn't, etc.
As I note above. We already have a system to do this.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:22 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,184,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post

AG Holder's clarification limited Presidential power to those engaged in combat.
The president does not hold the power to kill American citizens simply because he says they should be killed without due process.

Quote:
So hypothetically American citizens engaged in combat within the borders of the United States could be subject to drone strikes. Which would be within the guide lines and U.S. laws on the use of deadly force.
Just because you say so? Just because Holder says so without providing anything more than his word? I guess you aren't paying much attention what those from both parties are now saying. They are saying "no you do not and if you disagree you have to provide actual, factual reasoning for that".
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7,605 posts, read 4,844,197 times
Reputation: 1438
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
The president does not hold the power to kill American citizens simply because he says they should be killed without due process.



Just because you say so? Just because Holder says so without providing anything more than his word? I guess you aren't paying much attention what those from both parties are now saying. They are saying "no you do not and if you disagree you have to provide actual, factual reasoning for that".
Are you questioning whether or not Federal agents/LE have guidelines when they can and can't use deadly force within the borders of the United States? Many pages ago I posted one such Federal guideline. Its dependent on an imminent threat.

As near as I can tell the were last altered by Janet Reno.

Reno Tightening Rules on Use of Lethal Force by Federal Agents - NYTimes.com

Prompted by the shootings three years ago at Ruby Ridge, in Idaho, Attorney General Janet Reno today signed an order tightening the rules on the use of deadly force by agents at nine Federal law-enforcement agencies, Government officials said.Under current guidelines, agents may use deadly force to protect their lives or the life of another person who they believe to be in imminent danger. The new rules explicitly direct agents to use nonlethal means whenever possible.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:04 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,184,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post
Are you questioning whether or not Federal agents/LE have guidelines when they can and can't use deadly force within the borders of the United States? Many pages ago I posted one such Federal guideline. Its dependent on an imminent threat.
I have no desire to take this off topic and discuss law enforcement officers that have absolutely nothing to do with this.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,975 posts, read 47,615,131 times
Reputation: 14806
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post
Was AG Holder's response to Sen. Paul separate from the "Obama doctrine", because Holder's response said "under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States." There are laws that govern when the military can be used within the United States borders.
When you argue a strawman, like Paul did, it is irrelevant what was actually said by the opponents.
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