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That's odd. I thought you wanted to have an honest conversation, sans any games.
Perhaps you should perform some introspection prior to resuming this discussion.
Yes yes... another post claiming I'm lying about Republicans, but nothing about what the actual lie is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2
Your post was a strawman, Eddie. Of course you tore it to shreds. You made it up in the first place. Duh. That's how stawmen work. You make up an argument, attribute it to your opponents, and then tear it down.
You haven't "accurately pegged the conservative agenda in an unflattering light" when you haven't accurately pegged the agenda in the first place. What you pegged in an unflattering light was a strawman, not the conservative libertarian agenda.
Funny how my strawman is backed by proposed legislation from Republicans ON EVERY POINT I made. An argument that you can't refute doesn't equal a strawman. An argument that has facts you don't want to deal with does not make a strawman.
Why should I argue against a strawman? It's not my job to argue in favor of a position I never held to begin with.[/quote]
Simple fact: every single thing I posted is a Conservative position w/ proposed legislation to back it up. If you don't agree w/ what I wrote, then your problem is w/ Conservatives you've allied yourself with.
Quote:
No, there isn't. There's a question in your original post asking Republicans to prove that Republican policies exert an upward pressure on wages. Don't try to mischaracterize it now. I read your original post.
So you're asserting that there's a way for wages to climb WITHOUT upward pressure? Interesting. Goes against pretty much every economic theory, but still interesting.
Quote:
I even pointed you to two conservative economic philosophers. If I was just crying at how you'd accurately pegged my agenda as unflattering, then I wouldn't have done that. If you were indeed accurate, then pointing you to source material would only reinforce your accuracy.
Yes you did. It's something that I notice people do when they don't understand what they've read enough to back up their point.
Quote:
It's funny how in a thread you titled being being honest and not playing games you're more interested in gloating about how right you are than in actually finding out what the conservative agenda is from an actual conservative himself. Your true colors are showing. Honesty would be asking me what my agenda is, not insisting you pegged it accurately even after I said you didn't. You're trying to be right, not true and honest.
You have two avenues to pursue: show how I mischaracterized Republican positions by providing counter examples. Or show that upward pressure on wages isn't necessary to improve the problems you have w/ the economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Rossi
The government consumes too much, and it isn't coming form the middle to lower end, where effective tax rates are zero or lower, but from the upper class who pay a grossly-dispropotionate share of the taxes.
and how is that leading to companies w/ record profits not hiring? Or stopping companies w/ record profits from importing cheaper workers? Or stopping a company w/ record profits from off-shoring jobs? Or fueling the dismantling of workers unions? Or doing anything that leads to lower & middle-class wages stagnating? Short answer. It doesn't. It has nothing to do w/ the problems w/ the economy.
Quote:
All the things which you ascribe to Republicans (right to work, etc) are actually good for the employees of American companies. Note, I didn't call them "workers", because that is a nebulous, meaningless terms. Rather, they are employees of companies that use their services (labor) to make a profit, and for no other purpose. The employee's potential success is related, joined at the hip, with the companies potential success. Help the company to succeed, and you help the employee to succeed. Hinder the company, hinder the employee.
Companies are recording record profits. They are already succeeding.
Companies are getting all-time highs in productivity from workers. They are already succeeding.
Companies are paying all-time low corporate taxes. They are already succeeding.
Tell me again how much more we need to help companies succeed before it trickles down to the workers?
Quote:
If the supply of labor compared to demand, is so high as to drive supply-and-demand driven wages, down, employees need to do the same thing that companies have to do when the supply of the product they sell is so high that prices fall.
Adapt. Grow diffent crops, stop manufacturing buggy-whips, and start making car-interior's etc. Those that refuse, well your fate is your own and of your own making.
Lol... how do you adapt to the fact that there are more people going after fewer jobs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHurricaneKid
Supposedly, it frees up more capital to invest...
And then it trickles down their legs and onto our plates or something...
That's exactly my point. We've been stripping the power of demand from the biggest spenders -- the middle & lower classes -- and giving it to people who generate less demand as a whole -- the rich.
When you force Americans to compete w/ foreigners for domestic jobs, you put downward pressure on wages, meaning less money to spend, meaning less demand in the economy.
The same holds true when you defund public jobs, repeal the min wage, outsource jobs, and fight to disband unions.
It all fits in with the economic agenda the GOP seems to have adopted:
Millionaires don't have enough money and working folks have too much.
03-07-2013, 10:16 AM
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n/a posts
Quote:
I would be interested to know of any positions on the Right that put UPWARD pressure on wages... We already know what the current trend of downward pressure leads to: more people fighting for fewer jobs at lower wages creating less demand in the economy. So what do the Republicans have in their wheel house that puts the upward pressure on wages?
You need to take a step back.
Before you ask what their solution is, you first have to convince them that flat (or declining) wages, lack of jobs, rising income inequality, and lack of economic mobility are bad things. Those are not things that are widely accepted. Lack of economic mobility and concentration of wealth at the top are seen as good. Flat wages and an inability to make ends meet just means workers are lazy (despite rising productivity and the fact that minimum wage, in constant dollars, has declined significantly over the last several decades).
It's like they're suffering from some weird Stockholm syndrome, combined with pie in the sky fantasies that someday they'll be the ones at top who aren't getting screwed.
Why are higher wages your only proposed solution? Business labor budgets are finite. You seem to think that the lions share of businesses have all kinds of money to pay out in wages and are merely choosing not to do so. Are you willing to pay higher prices for everything in order to arbitrarily put "upward pressure" on wages?
The problem is demand, not wages. An abundance of demand generally translates into job opportunities and the opportunity to move around and seek higher wages. But I'm sure you knew that.
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Originally Posted by Ringo1
Demand and wages are tied together. But I'm sure you knew that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne
So how do tax cuts for the rich increase demand?
Bingo. Tax cuts for the rich do nothing for the economy at this point in time and certainly does not increase 'demand'.
Why are higher wages your only proposed solution? Business labor budgets are finite. You seem to think that the lions share of businesses have all kinds of money to pay out in wages and are merely choosing not to do so. Are you willing to pay higher prices for everything in order to arbitrarily put "upward pressure" on wages?
The problem is demand, not wages. An abundance of demand generally translates into job opportunities and the opportunity to move around and seek higher wages. But I'm sure you knew that.
Yes yes... another post claiming I'm lying about Republicans, but nothing about what the actual lie is.
Funny how my strawman is backed by proposed legislation from Republicans ON EVERY POINT I made. An argument that you can't refute doesn't equal a strawman. An argument that has facts you don't want to deal with does not make a strawman.
Why should I argue against a strawman? It's not my job to argue in favor of a position I never held to begin with.
Quote:
Simple fact: every single thing I posted is a Conservative position w/ proposed legislation to back it up. If you don't agree w/ what I wrote, then your problem is w/ Conservatives you've allied yourself with.
So you're asserting that there's a way for wages to climb WITHOUT upward pressure? Interesting. Goes against pretty much every economic theory, but still interesting.
Yes you did. It's something that I notice people do when they don't understand what they've read enough to back up their point.
You have two avenues to pursue: show how I mischaracterized Republican positions by providing counter examples. Or show that upward pressure on wages isn't necessary to improve the problems you have w/ the economy.
and how is that leading to companies w/ record profits not hiring? Or stopping companies w/ record profits from importing cheaper workers? Or stopping a company w/ record profits from off-shoring jobs? Or fueling the dismantling of workers unions? Or doing anything that leads to lower & middle-class wages stagnating? Short answer. It doesn't. It has nothing to do w/ the problems w/ the economy.
Companies are recording record profits. They are already succeeding.
Companies are getting all-time highs in productivity from workers. They are already succeeding.
Companies are paying all-time low corporate taxes. They are already succeeding.
Tell me again how much more we need to help companies succeed before it trickles down to the workers?
Lol... how do you adapt to the fact that there are more people going after fewer jobs?
And then it trickles down their legs and onto our plates or something...
That was an amazing fact filled post. Thank you.
Last edited by Think4Yourself; 03-07-2013 at 10:55 AM..
Your post was a strawman, Eddie. Of course you tore it to shreds. You made it up in the first place. Duh. That's how stawmen work. You make up an argument, attribute it to your opponents, and then tear it down.
You haven't "accurately pegged the conservative agenda in an unflattering light" when you haven't accurately pegged the agenda in the first place. What you pegged in an unflattering light was a strawman, not the conservative libertarian agenda.
Why should I argue against a strawman? It's not my job to argue in favor of a position I never held to begin with.
No, there isn't. There's a question in your original post asking Republicans to prove that Republican policies exert an upward pressure on wages. Don't try to mischaracterize it now. I read your original post.
I even pointed you to two conservative economic philosophers. If I was just crying at how you'd accurately pegged my agenda as unflattering, then I wouldn't have done that. If you were indeed accurate, then pointing you to source material would only reinforce your accuracy.
It's funny how in a thread you titled being being honest and not playing games you're more interested in gloating about how right you are than in actually finding out what the conservative agenda is from an actual conservative himself. Your true colors are showing. Honesty would be asking me what my agenda is, not insisting you pegged it accurately even after I said you didn't. You're trying to be right, not true and honest.
It is nothing of the kind. Your posts are proof of Eddie's point.
What you need is an education on the differences between conservatism and today's sociopathic and treasonous Republicans.
So does tax increases on the rich create "demand" for private sector jobs?
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. It really depends on context. For instance, in the 1950's and 1960's high personal income tax rates meant business owners didn't take much money out of businesses as personal income and instead ended up reinvesting most of it into the business. If they took it out of the business then they'd get hit with a big tax bill but if they reinvested it then they didn't have to pay any taxes on it so, yes, it resulted in businesses all across the country constantly expanding their current product lines, creating new product lines, and expanding into more cities all across the country. This increased total employment, increased demand, and even lead to higher wages because it was better to give the workers a raise then to just see the government take the money.
In short, yes, taxes (along with tax deductions to encourage companies to take a certain course of action) can indeed increase demand; you need both a carrot and a stick and taxes are the stick.
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. It really depends on context. For instance, in the 1950's and 1960's high personal income tax rates meant business owners didn't take much money out of businesses as personal income and instead ended up reinvesting most of it into the business. If they took it out of the business then they'd get hit with a big tax bill but if they reinvested it then they didn't have to pay any taxes on it so, yes, it resulted in businesses all across the country constantly expanding their current product lines, creating new product lines, and expanding into more cities all across the country. This increased total employment, increased demand, and even lead to higher wages because it was better to give the workers a raise then to just see the government take the money.
In short, yes, taxes (along with tax deductions to encourage companies to take a certain course of action) can indeed increase demand; you need both a carrot and a stick and taxes are the stick.
Good post. Thanks.
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We already know what the current trend of downward pressure leads to: more people fighting for fewer jobs at lower wages creating less demand in the economy. So what do the Republicans have in their wheel house that puts the upward pressure on wages?
