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Old 03-09-2013, 10:02 AM
 
36,596 posts, read 16,002,497 times
Reputation: 8306

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
This is a fallacy.

For instance, I would argue that abortion should he legal in cases if rape, incest, and the life of the mother.

But conservatives, some not all, will argue that no abortion should be legal.

Now in my argument we've removed personal responsibility from the equation. No one wants to be raped, be knocked up by a rapist father, or have a deformed child that could kill the mother. Yet, conservatives will take a liberal position that no abortion should be legal.

So your argument fails, in the details.
" Yet, conservatives will take a liberal position that no abortion should be legal." I disagree.

 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,537,727 times
Reputation: 8908
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHurricaneKid View Post
Discipline.

The discipline to work long and hard.
The discipline to recognize needs from wants.
The discipline to endure the minimum to save for a better future.
The discipline to abstain until you could afford children.
The discipline to be careful with expenses.
The discipline to not act out of impulse.
The discipline to not do drugs.
The discipline to take studying seriously.

If people were more disciplined, many of the problems facing the households of America would not be here today. This includes problems with education, real estate, personal debt, health, driving, etc.


...The country would be better off, if parents taught their children discipline.
If this is what you gather about it you gather WRONG.

These traits you list here have absolutely NOTHING to do with conservativism. Actually having read a few books on the life of Stalin, these things would describe him very well.

There was a national poll taken a few years ago on, "Who is the greatest Canadian of all time". It was won by Tommy Douglas. A Baptist minister and politician. He was the father of universal healthcare in Canada and as leader of Saskatchewan he brought in huge changes or the better in a poor underdeveloped part of the country that endure to this day and spread all over the country. He was anything but a conservative and you could call him a radical far left liberal. He would also be a person who would be very close to these so called conservative values.

What makes a conservative is very very different than the list. I could give a very accurate list of commonalities of conservatives but I hear my microwave beeping.
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:22 AM
 
4,690 posts, read 3,906,011 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
If this is what you gather about it you gather WRONG.

These traits you list here have absolutely NOTHING to do with conservativism. Actually having read a few books on the life of Stalin, these things would describe him very well.

There was a national poll taken a few years ago on, "Who is the greatest Canadian of all time". It was won by Tommy Douglas. A Baptist minister and politician. He was the father of universal healthcare in Canada and as leader of Saskatchewan he brought in huge changes or the better in a poor underdeveloped part of the country that endure to this day and spread all over the country. He was anything but a conservative and you could call him a radical far left liberal. He would also be a person who would be very close to these so called conservative values.

What makes a conservative is very very different than the list. I could give a very accurate list of commonalities of conservatives but I hear my microwave beeping.

You're spot on with Tommy Douglas as an example. What the OP seems to be trying to do, apparently without much of the intellectual background to provide the necessary tools, is describe a set of values which Protestant North Americans have traditionally identified as being particularly central to their own culture: thrift, hard work, abstemiousness, self-restraint.

As a protestant minister of Scottish cultural background raised in a hardscrabble rural society, Douglas personified those values and that culture.

And, ironically for the preconceptions of the OP, Douglas was perhaps the most prominent Socialist politician in the history of either Canada or the United States, as the founder of the most electorally successful Socialist party in either country, the CCF or as it has been known for decades now, the NDP.

Which is to say that the cultural values the OP is groping to express are the property of no party or place on the political spectrum, but simply part of the wider culture which North American Protestantism brought with it from its European origins.

Last edited by squarian; 03-09-2013 at 10:31 AM..
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:30 AM
 
Location: The Brat Stop
8,353 posts, read 5,973,005 times
Reputation: 2279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
I would add:
  • The discipline to make decisions based upon reason rather than emotion; and
  • The discipline to be consistent and not hypocritical.
Which is why GOP hypocrites, when exposed, typically end their political career. While on the other hand, Democrats appear to thrive on their hypocrisy.
Then why did Bush and Cheenee hang around for so long?
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Texas
26,629 posts, read 11,160,696 times
Reputation: 6106
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHurricaneKid View Post
Discipline.

The discipline to work long and hard.
The discipline to recognize needs from wants.
The discipline to endure the minimum to save for a better future.
The discipline to abstain until you could afford children.
The discipline to be careful with expenses.
The discipline to not act out of impulse.
The discipline to not do drugs.
The discipline to take studying seriously.

If people were more disciplined, many of the problems facing the households of America would not be here today. This includes problems with education, real estate, personal debt, health, driving, etc.


...The country would be better off, if parents taught their children discipline.
It's about a smaller federal government.
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,223 posts, read 1,589,249 times
Reputation: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
Ill add a few more:
The discipline to grow the police state and erode civil liberties
The discipline to continue propping up the military/industrial complex
The discipline to invade countries that pose us no threat
Perhaps Obama will turn aside from these activities.
We can always hope . . .
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,537,727 times
Reputation: 8908
The biggest trait shared among the largest % of conservatives is exactly how they got the name.

They almost universally dislike and will fight against "CHANGE". They hate and FEAR change and always want to "Conserve" the way things have ALWAYS been done. This is a particulary damaging philodphy because they will and do hang on to failing ideas, declining conditions and basic changes in the society they live in. In a conservative's mind the fact that something worked in the past, even if it worked poorly is a good enough reason to cling to this outdated and maybe disasterous policy.

The conservative's entire mindset is based on fear. If you have not noticed that fact about the GOP you are just not paying attention. Any resonable person when presented with the fact of an Obama as president would think, OK, I think he's wrong and what he plans won't work but he only has four years and if the effects are as bad as I FEAR they will be, he will lose next time and WE will undo what he has done. No, sadly a conservative does not think rationally like that. He thinks, this is arrmegeddon, everything is destroyed and the end is nigh!!!

Therefore we get a Hoover who is absolutely paralized by the crash of 1929 and refuses to make any kind of substansive changes in order to deal with a true political and social disaster. Constrasted against that is an FDR who answered when asked if he was sure his measures would work, "I'm not sure, but it's far better to fail doing something than to fail doing nothing. Doing anything towards solving a problem is half the battle because it gives the people hope of success".

the failing of the "Progressive" often is he is so focused on improving conditions and making wholesale changes that he might fiddle with something that works well to it's detriment just for the sake of change. WE have seen that many times in Canada. It's never a fatal blunder though and the solution is easy. Back off from the measure, adjust it and move ahead.

Last edited by lucknow; 03-09-2013 at 11:25 AM..
 
Old 03-09-2013, 11:08 AM
 
1,266 posts, read 1,519,815 times
Reputation: 3348
Liberals and conservatives think differently because they ARE different---psychologyically speaking, that is. The poster who said "fear" is among the defining terms for conservatives is actually correct. The events of 9/11 only solidified this anxiety among conservatives. I reckon that's why the devisiveness amoung libs and cons has ramped up so much in the past 10+ years. If you don't believe me, here's a pretty good summary of scholarly studies done on the very topic.

Unconscious Reactions Separate Liberals and Conservatives: Scientific American
 
Old 03-09-2013, 11:14 AM
 
29,419 posts, read 18,688,181 times
Reputation: 5437
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
If this is what you gather about it you gather WRONG.

These traits you list here have absolutely NOTHING to do with conservativism. Actually having read a few books on the life of Stalin, these things would describe him very well.

There was a national poll taken a few years ago on, "Who is the greatest Canadian of all time". It was won by Tommy Douglas. A Baptist minister and politician. He was the father of universal healthcare in Canada and as leader of Saskatchewan he brought in huge changes or the better in a poor underdeveloped part of the country that endure to this day and spread all over the country. He was anything but a conservative and you could call him a radical far left liberal. He would also be a person who would be very close to these so called conservative values.

What makes a conservative is very very different than the list. I could give a very accurate list of commonalities of conservatives but I hear my microwave beeping.
Tommy Douglas eh? Never heard of him or anybody else. Nobody cares about Canada unless the maple syrup comes to a halt. Then we have trouble.
 
Old 03-09-2013, 11:21 AM
 
29,419 posts, read 18,688,181 times
Reputation: 5437
Quote:
Originally Posted by TotallyTam View Post
Liberals and conservatives think differently because they ARE different---psychologyically speaking, that is. The poster who said "fear" is among the defining terms for conservatives is actually correct. The events of 9/11 only solidified this anxiety among conservatives. I reckon that's why the devisiveness amoung libs and cons has ramped up so much in the past 10+ years. If you don't believe me, here's a pretty good summary of scholarly studies done on the very topic.

Unconscious Reactions Separate Liberals and Conservatives: Scientific American
Hmmm is that why liberals try and scare their followers on a daily basis? The world is crashing down, the budget is being cut, global warming will doom us all . Try and do something with social security and old people will be starving in the streets etc. etc. etc.

The events of 9/11 are reality not some drummed up fear by dear leader. Try again.
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