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Old 03-11-2013, 08:23 AM
 
9,053 posts, read 5,580,860 times
Reputation: 3820

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer View Post
We already have diesels, I know a number of people that own them without issue (including my wife's new car, my mother, and father in law). They are bringing even more over from Mercedes and BMW, including hybrids. No one is taking them away. Same with electric cars, we are getting more an more Volts, Leafs, and even an electric RAV-4.

The imperial gallon is also 4.55 liters, where the US gallon is 3.8...of course you will get better mileage if you increase the amount of fuel in the gallon by almost 20%. That's first grade mathematics, which this raving loony seems to forget.

That makes the whole conspiracy look doubly crazy that there is an increase in mpg when you use a larger gallon.
For those not very adept with simple first grade math .... what would a 20% increase in the average 35 mpg achieve? Would that magically produce 70 mpg? Or would you need a 100% increase?

Fact is, Tesla Motors has a model X which will be making deliveries next year (their model S was motor trend car of the year).

All electric ... SUV type that seats 7 ... tons of cargo space ... all wheel drive ... that gets 300 miles on a single charge ... AND ... out performs a Porsche 911 Carrera in the 0-60 mph. It's gas equivalent efficiency is roughly 95 mpg.

Compare that to the Chevy volt, and get back to me.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:03 AM
 
1,165 posts, read 1,328,323 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
One poster here mentioned an important point that was lost due to their "it's not the government, it's the EPA ..." (apparently not realizing that the EPA is government) so the real point was lost ... nevertheless, the point was correct in highlighting the methodology of the EPA in restrictions based on measuring pollution output by the gallon of fuel, versus the mile traveled, which they do relative to all fuel types ... not just diesel. And it's such a lame brained method, one has no choice but to wonder ... are they that stupid, or is it that they think we are?

With the current EPA measuring method ... Vehicle X can get 70 mpg, though if it produces even 20% more pollution per gallon of fuel, it is disapproved, while Vehicle Y that gets 35 mpg is perfectly acceptable because it achieves the EPA's arbitrary allowable pollution output per gallon of fuel, even though the 70 mpg vehicle ultimately produces 80% LESS pollution given it's doubling of milage efficiency. This folks, is true government bureaucracy at it's brain dead best, which routinely produces the exact opposite result of it's intended purpose. In this case, keeping consumers from access to vehicles that would cut their fuel expenses in half, AND, result in 80% decrease in the pollution at the same time, would seem to be the only sensible thing to do if the claimed desire to reduce emissions were legit. And I refuse to believe that the analysts making these calculations are too damned stupid to recognize that. It has to be intentional.
Have you ever actually looked at the standards? They are given in grams of pollutant per mile.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:54 AM
 
9,053 posts, read 5,580,860 times
Reputation: 3820
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcattwood View Post
Have you ever actually looked at the standards? They are given in grams of pollutant per mile.
Wrong. The EPA ... for emissions standards and environmental impact uses baselines for MPG efficiency of 21.6 mpg, while measuring the emissions per gallon of fuel used under that average.

Passenger vehicles per year
Passenger vehicles are defined as 2-axle 4-tire vehicles, including passenger cars, vans, pickup trucks, and sport/utility vehicles.

In 2010, the weighted average combined fuel economy of cars and light trucks combined was 21.6 miles per gallon (FHWA 2012). The average vehicle miles traveled in 2010 was 11,489 miles per year.

In 2010, the ratio of carbon dioxide emissions to total greenhouse gas emissions (including carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide, all expressed as carbon dioxide equivalents) for passenger vehicles was 0.985 (EPA 2012).

The amount of carbon dioxide emitted per gallon of motor gasoline burned is 8.92 × 10-3 metric tons, as calculated in the “Gallons of gasoline consumed” section below.

To determine annual greenhouse gas emissions per passenger vehicle, the following methodology was used: vehicle miles traveled (VMT) was divided by average gas mileage to determine gallons of gasoline consumed per vehicle per year. Gallons of gasoline consumed was multiplied by carbon dioxide per gallon of gasoline to determine carbon dioxide emitted per vehicle per year. Carbon dioxide emissions were then divided by the ratio of carbon dioxide emissions to total vehicle greenhouse gas emissions to account for vehicle methane and nitrous oxide emissions.


Calculations and References | Clean Energy | US EPA
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:02 AM
 
11,275 posts, read 7,293,278 times
Reputation: 4456
A diesel/electric hybrid is what I want.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:38 AM
 
1,165 posts, read 1,328,323 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Wrong. The EPA ... for emissions standards and environmental impact uses baselines for MPG efficiency of 21.6 mpg, while measuring the emissions per gallon of fuel used under that average.

Passenger vehicles per year
Passenger vehicles are defined as 2-axle 4-tire vehicles, including passenger cars, vans, pickup trucks, and sport/utility vehicles.

In 2010, the weighted average combined fuel economy of cars and light trucks combined was 21.6 miles per gallon (FHWA 2012). The average vehicle miles traveled in 2010 was 11,489 miles per year.

In 2010, the ratio of carbon dioxide emissions to total greenhouse gas emissions (including carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide, all expressed as carbon dioxide equivalents) for passenger vehicles was 0.985 (EPA 2012).

The amount of carbon dioxide emitted per gallon of motor gasoline burned is 8.92 × 10-3 metric tons, as calculated in the “Gallons of gasoline consumed” section below.

To determine annual greenhouse gas emissions per passenger vehicle, the following methodology was used: vehicle miles traveled (VMT) was divided by average gas mileage to determine gallons of gasoline consumed per vehicle per year. Gallons of gasoline consumed was multiplied by carbon dioxide per gallon of gasoline to determine carbon dioxide emitted per vehicle per year. Carbon dioxide emissions were then divided by the ratio of carbon dioxide emissions to total vehicle greenhouse gas emissions to account for vehicle methane and nitrous oxide emissions.


Calculations and References | Clean Energy | US EPA
That was the method they used to estimate how much CO2 was emitted by passenger vehicles across the country and has nothing to do with the emissions standards applied to individual vehicle models.

Here is a sample calculation of the emissions factors for a natural gas vehicle. On the last page you can see that they divide the grams of each pollutant measured by the number of miles driven during the test.

And here is the part of the federal code that specifies how the calculations are to be done where again the mass of pollutant is divided by miles driven (not gallons of fuel or average mpg).
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Va. Beach
6,396 posts, read 4,388,471 times
Reputation: 2278
Gas mileage is easy to accomplish, but costly. Most cars could easily get more mileage AND power, but you would add a couple of thousand dollars to the cost of the car, and cars sell for a number of reasons, PRICE being one.

Case in point, I have a 2004 Grand Prix GTP. It is rated from the factory, 17 MPG city, and 27 highway.

I have a number of modifications on it, to include a different intake, special coils, plugs, wires, throttle body, modified PCM programming, and exhaust modifications.

The end result is, I average 20 mpg around town, and 32.5 on the highway, AND I produce 28 more horses at the wheels, and yes, I have the DYNO reports to validate that claim.

It is not however cost/economical for detroit to make these mods to every car, because while I can make these mods and gain an advantage for me, the cost for these mods/changes in the overall is not something that Detroit wants to add to the cost of every car they make.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:01 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,428 posts, read 74,290,595 times
Reputation: 47813
clearly the US does not want high mileage cars or at least not cheap ones available to the masses.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,401 posts, read 1,175,837 times
Reputation: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Even if they let them in, the gov't would raise taxes to make up the shortfall in tax revenues. Why do you think that Europeans pay $8-$10 per gallon for diesel? They benefit from better mpg, but lose it at the pump.
Actually taxes are high because the road traffic is considered being harmful
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:42 PM
 
77,567 posts, read 33,053,099 times
Reputation: 15443
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoking66 View Post
How about raising the 18.4¢/gal gas tax that isn't adjusted to inflation and hasn't been increased in decades, rendering it essentially worthless? I currently live in the UK and taxes on fuel make it around the equivalent of $7.50/gal, which is a huge source of funding and reason enough for Americans to stop complaining about high gas prices. Oh no, it's more important to distort the market yet again.
Because a 3.8 million square mile country should be able to do things exactly like an island country?
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,188,289 times
Reputation: 7949
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Diesel technology, is producing insane fuel mileage and performance in one package.
The EPA has been trying to restrict diesel engines, more and more.
I recall a few years ago, maybe about 7 or 8, there was a spate of news stories about various Japanese companies bringing diesel cars out that would get 50-60 mpg. I was interested because I was thinking that an AWD subaru getting 55 mpg would be nice. It never happened.

I asked an engineer buddy and he said that it was a Bush conspiracy. But Bush has been gone for 4 years now, and still no 55 mpg diesel suby. I think the technology is there, but the politics is not. In particular, the big 3 probably does not want that kind of competition.
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