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Old 03-13-2013, 05:37 PM
 
49,741 posts, read 26,390,551 times
Reputation: 15501

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000 View Post
It's evidence of the previous political influence of the Miami Cuban exiles that it still exists.
Yep, and its disproportionate power at that. Makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
It's really simple electoral college manuevering. The swing in Cuban voters in Florida were more than enough to have put Gore in the Whitehouse instead of Bush II.

Whichever President extends the olive branch to Cuba with the Castros still running the joint are going to lose a few hundred thousand votes in one of the most critical swing states.

So bottom line: FL is a huge swing state and the anti-cuban voters there are numerous and are not locked in to any one party....and politicians are by and large vote prostitutes.
Math...I think that you would've been right 15 years ago, but I think you're wrong now.

I think the majority of the exile community would be over the moon if the embargo were lifted. The Democrats are scared to test the waters. Obama should push for it RIGHT NOW since he's been reelected.

Moreover, I don't think the Cuban community has anywhere near the power in Florida that they once had. They're being outnumbered by other Floridian Hispanics, and very fast too. The Dems don't need the Cuban vote anymore IMHO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
I don't think that's true. I think the restrictions are a hardship for those here with family there. I believe a leader that lifts the sanctions would be very popular and a step towards peace.
I agree...VERY POPULAR. Here and in Cuba. It would give us more influence there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
Well, China isn't right off our shores. China didn't import nuclear weapons to point at the United States. China isn't famous for anti-American rhetoric. China didn't send boatloads of criminals to American shores.

China isn't friendly to America but they aren't openly antagonizing America on the world stage.

America made agreements with Vietnam for returning the remains of fallen soliders to American families. That gesture eased trade relations with Vietnam.

President Nixon made a world famous state visit to China. That visit eased trade relations with China.

There hasn't been anything which would perform a similar function with Cuba. You just can't let someone a few miles from your border make international speeches about how you are evil and shout die a horrible death and then go "okay, want a cookie?"

It would be like dropping the trade sanctions against Iran without them stopping their nuclear weapons program. Even if we found the trade sanctions weren't having any effect, now that they are in place they just can't be dropped.

From a geopolitical standpoint we need some excuse to open trade with Cuba at this point. Even if the embargo doesn't make any sense these days, and I agree it doesn't, we need an excuse to lift it. There'd be a political firestorm in response otherwise.
There'd be no firestorm....and your arguments belong to yesteryear. The world has changed, and so has the Cuban American community. They don't even try to defend this embargo anymore unless they're one of the ones that are still stuck in the past.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,791,814 times
Reputation: 4242
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
That was a theory I read a few years back. The Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine done not through nuclear weapons but through economics. Make every country so interdependent with the other countries that going to war would be economically impossible.
Ron Paul said it, but he was labelled an 'isolationist'.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,791,814 times
Reputation: 4242
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
Well, China isn't right off our shores. China didn't import nuclear weapons to point at the United States. China isn't famous for anti-American rhetoric. China didn't send boatloads of criminals to American shores.

China isn't friendly to America but they aren't openly antagonizing America on the world stage.

America made agreements with Vietnam for returning the remains of fallen soliders to American families. That gesture eased trade relations with Vietnam.

President Nixon made a world famous state visit to China. That visit eased trade relations with China.

There hasn't been anything which would perform a similar function with Cuba. You just can't let someone a few miles from your border make international speeches about how you are evil and shout die a horrible death and then go "okay, want a cookie?"

It would be like dropping the trade sanctions against Iran without them stopping their nuclear weapons program. Even if we found the trade sanctions weren't having any effect, now that they are in place they just can't be dropped.

From a geopolitical standpoint we need some excuse to open trade with Cuba at this point. Even if the embargo doesn't make any sense these days, and I agree it doesn't, we need an excuse to lift it. There'd be a political firestorm in response otherwise.
Yes, you can. Just drop the sanctions and open up free trade. The world will be a better place for it - that's your excuse.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:13 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,155,221 times
Reputation: 1396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall Gibson LP View Post
It is necessary to artificially suppress the economy so that it can be shown that socialism doesn't work.
Yeah, and at the same time support China's economy so it can be shown that communism works.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:23 PM
 
Location: England
24,589 posts, read 6,097,949 times
Reputation: 30318
Jeez, the Castro brothers are both pretty old.... I've better go to Cuba for a cheap all-inclusive holiday before Americans get back in there, and cause prices to go up.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:35 PM
 
8,561 posts, read 5,419,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English Dave View Post
Jeez, the Castro brothers are both pretty old.... I've better go to Cuba for a cheap all-inclusive holiday before Americans get back in there, and cause prices to go up.
Well, I don't know about that....the Castro brothers are old, but...Fidel seemingly may live forever. LOL He apparently has overcome many maladies as a result of the medical care which can be provided in Cuba.

The Cuban exiles in Miami are ALWAYS predicting Fidel's death or they are sure he is already dead, yet they have so far missed mark and proven wrong in their predictions. It's sort of like predicting the date for the end of the world. I think there have been many cancelled celebrations of Fidel's death in Miami.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:43 PM
 
8,561 posts, read 5,419,995 times
Reputation: 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post

I think the majority of the exile community would be over the moon if the embargo were lifted. The Democrats are scared to test the waters. Obama should push for it RIGHT NOW since he's been reelected.
Why do you think the old exile community would be over the moon if the embargo were lifted?

THEY are the reason it has stayed in place so long. For them, it seems to be about revenge, pure and simple, revenge. I realize that those people are getting old and many are dying, so their power is far, far less than it was at one time. Also their power started the decline after Jorge Mas Canosa died, but it has been in slow decline. Elian issue was a huge loser for the Miami Cuban exile community as well. However, there are still the hardliners like the Diaz-Balart family (Lincoln and his brother) and Illeana Ros-Leghtien out there.

Anne Louise Bardach, the author of Cuba Confidential, and a very well respected journalist and expert on Cuba, says that the embargo actually helps Castro. Do you think the exiles have figured that one out?
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:29 PM
 
1,127 posts, read 769,963 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
Well, China isn't right off our shores. China didn't import nuclear weapons to point at the United States. China isn't famous for anti-American rhetoric. China didn't send boatloads of criminals to American shores.

China isn't friendly to America but they aren't openly antagonizing America on the world stage.

America made agreements with Vietnam for returning the remains of fallen soliders to American families. That gesture eased trade relations with Vietnam.

President Nixon made a world famous state visit to China. That visit eased trade relations with China.

There hasn't been anything which would perform a similar function with Cuba. You just can't let someone a few miles from your border make international speeches about how you are evil and shout die a horrible death and then go "okay, want a cookie?"

It would be like dropping the trade sanctions against Iran without them stopping their nuclear weapons program. Even if we found the trade sanctions weren't having any effect, now that they are in place they just can't be dropped.

From a geopolitical standpoint we need some excuse to open trade with Cuba at this point. Even if the embargo doesn't make any sense these days, and I agree it doesn't, we need an excuse to lift it. There'd be a political firestorm in response otherwise.
You cite events that occurred half a century ago as justification for the embargo? Why stop at 50 years, why not go back to the 40's, lets put an embargo on Germany, Italy, and Japan. Let's throw in Russia along with the former Soviet Bloc
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:32 AM
 
49,741 posts, read 26,390,551 times
Reputation: 15501
Quote:
Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000 View Post
Why do you think the old exile community would be over the moon if the embargo were lifted?

THEY are the reason it has stayed in place so long. For them, it seems to be about revenge, pure and simple, revenge. I realize that those people are getting old and many are dying, so their power is far, far less than it was at one time. Also their power started the decline after Jorge Mas Canosa died, but it has been in slow decline. Elian issue was a huge loser for the Miami Cuban exile community as well. However, there are still the hardliners like the Diaz-Balart family (Lincoln and his brother) and Illeana Ros-Leghtien out there.

Anne Louise Bardach, the author of Cuba Confidential, and a very well respected journalist and expert on Cuba, says that the embargo actually helps Castro. Do you think the exiles have figured that one out?
I think that because there are relatively few "exiles" left.

The Cuban community has changed, but we're still acting as if Jorge Mas Canosa is still around.

I don't believe that a Democrat needs the Cuban American vote to win Florida anymore, and since I believe that to be the case, so what if I'm wrong about the idea that Cuban Americans won't get angry. They'll get over it.

But the few hardliners left shouldn't be able to hold U.S. policy hostage to their bitterness. Obama needs to show some cojones on this issue.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:09 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,489 posts, read 20,808,627 times
Reputation: 13746
Castro begged the Russians for nukes to use against America. Just because you're too young to remember that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Ignorance is no excuse. Let that sorry S.O.B. and his porno-loving brother kick the bucket, get stuffed and mounted in Havana (a la their disciple Chavez), wait a few years, then we can talk about letting Cuba make cheap underwear and garden gnomes for us to sell in the dollar stores. We might even let them auction off those vintage Chevys and DeSotos for a few bucks.

But for any of this to happen, Cuba needs to let their people travel freely, speak their minds openly, and enjoy the basic human rights of a civilized country. Oh, and apologize for engaging in over five decades of unmitigated totalitarian oppression of their own people and the unremitting, malignant hatred directed at the United States. Without an abject apology, there can be no "normalization" of relations with this police state parked off the shore of Florida, which has been spewing lies and punishing dissenters and desperate would-be emigrants for decades. Or are the Cuba-lovers here saying that America is somehow in the wrong? That AMERICA threatened Cuba with nukes? That AMERICA shot down unarmed aircraft towing banners which dared to criticize the US? That AMERICA imprisons its citizens when they criticize our governent? That AMERICA forbids its citizens to travel or emigrate to other countries?

I love those in this thread who say that the embargo hasn't hurt Cuba so much. Why, if that's so, why do you want it lifted? Bottom line: The Cubans ran a whorehouse for Spain, then for America, and then for Russia. They made their beds. Let them sleep in them. Let them continue to choke on the stupid hatred for America that keeps their pathetic half-assed socialist gerontocracy propped up for a few more years. Then maybe we'll listen to their apologies for having enslaved their people and threatened the United States since 1959.
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