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Old 03-22-2013, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,882 posts, read 31,776,624 times
Reputation: 12629

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
How can i be "exposed as ignorant" to modern biology when I have earned state credit(in both California and Washington) in modern biology courses?
Yeah right, and how is that law degree coming along?...There is a reason people do not believe you, and you are providing it constantly.

 
Old 03-22-2013, 09:35 PM
 
9,094 posts, read 5,615,612 times
Reputation: 3840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Feelings is all you got on the matter. Nor did I presume to speak for the community at large. All I did was point out that your straw manning of that community in no way matches what they have actually done or said. Misrepresenting the claims of evolution is not, and will likely never be, an argument against it. Try as you might.

I repeat again if you are personally upset that a particular label fits you and something else you so desperately want to feel yourself above and beyond... then that is your problem and yours alone. It is certainly not a problem of the label. Nor of Evolution Theory.



So insults and ad hominem are arguments now are they? I am sorry but I left this level of discussion and debate behind when I was a 9 year old on the school yard. If you want to debunk my points great. If you want to ignore my points and just throw around invective.... that says more about you and nothing about me.

The point you so desperately avoided and ignored is that classing ourselves as another animal contains no value judgement. We ARE just another animal. If "animal" is the label you are using. That fact is entirely separate from the differences between us. It merely groups us based on the similarities inherent in the label. If those similarities terrify you so... then that's your problem not ours.







This is a good place to start your above mentioned quest to actually start understanding that of which you speak. ALL of science is about reforming Theory to fit each new discovery and each piece of new data. That is exactly what science is. Grasp that and that alone and you will have left this thread a better and moree educated man than you entered it as all the rest of the post from this point on is predicated on pretty much the same errors in thinking.
It's quite fraudulent to simply cherry pick and edit out the areas that you prefer not to, or are incapable of addressing. But that's what it takes to be an evolutionist ... a lack of integrity is a prerequisite.

Last edited by CaseyB; 03-25-2013 at 04:52 AM..
 
Old 03-22-2013, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,223 posts, read 1,593,554 times
Reputation: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHurricaneKid View Post
Evolution is biological history, mutation, and statistics.
Neo-Darwinism is not feasible.
Plain and simple.

The number of positive mutations that would have to occur in concert is mathematically implausible by itself.
When you add in the number of negative mutations which occur for each positive mutation it becomes mathematically impossible on a scale to have any significant impact.

The only thing that has been shown is variation within species and subspeciation which is a contraction of genetic viability and typically evolutionary dead-ends rather than an expansion of genetic viability.

Some would argue the accumulation of genetic load will eventually doom humanity.

If there are any post-Neo-Darwinists I'm willing to listen if someone has some new theories to rationalize evolution.
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,223 posts, read 1,593,554 times
Reputation: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Evolution belongs in the science classroom.

Creationism belongs in Sunday school.

One is proven.
Proven?
Really . . .

Time, Mutation and Selection have proven nothing but variation within species.
Nothing has been proposed to illustrate transspeciation, or macro-evolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Those who can't distinguish that difference have nothing to add to the discussion other than uninformed opinion.
I think you describe yourself.
One should be taught in Sunday School in the Church of Humanism.

The other should be explored, not taught using scientific rigor.
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles County, CA
29,124 posts, read 22,044,942 times
Reputation: 6128
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Yeah right, and how is that law degree coming along?....
Coming along just fine as of now.

I keep plugging away and getting things done.

That is what one has to do, not wait around for "evolution".
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,432 posts, read 28,289,218 times
Reputation: 29020
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
The number of positive mutations that would have to occur in concert is mathematically implausible by itself.

When you add in the number of negative mutations which occur for each positive mutation it becomes mathematically impossible on a scale to have any significant impact.
The mutations that create different species do not have to occur "in concert". They are gradual. Some genes mutate more often than others. If negative mutations accumulate, the result to the organism is such that survival and reproduction are less likely to happen.

Estimates of mutation rates can even be used to calculate how long ago divergence of species happened.
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,223 posts, read 1,593,554 times
Reputation: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The mutations that create different species do not have to occur "in concert". They are gradual. Some genes mutate more often than others. If negative mutations accumulate, the result to the organism is such that survival and reproduction are less likely to happen.

Estimates of mutation rates can even be used to calculate how long ago divergence of species happened.
Suzy, that is simply mis-information.
Positive change more often if not always must include inter-dependent characteristics developed concurrently to be successful. There are no viable examples to illustrate this principle.

A single positive change such as a hardened beak on a woodpecker (<- a common example) without the structural support to protect it's brain would result in the brain becoming jelly given the force and speed in which a woodpecker hammers it's beak against wood.

Yes, all species including humans accumulate genetic load over time - an accumulation of negative mutations.

When you say divergence of species, I believe you mean sub-speciation in which different sub-species with a smaller genetic pool which may no longer interbreed with each other are descended from a shared primary species which includes the superset of genetic material to include both genetic subsets.

This is not forward progression, this is backwards regression.
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Michigan
2,198 posts, read 2,245,986 times
Reputation: 2091
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
Neo-Darwinism is not feasible.
Plain and simple.

The number of positive mutations that would have to occur in concert is mathematically implausible by itself.
When you add in the number of negative mutations which occur for each positive mutation it becomes mathematically impossible on a scale to have any significant impact.
Could you demonstrate this math for us?

And explain what role negative mutations play in this implausibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
The only thing that has been shown is variation within species and subspeciation which is a contraction of genetic viability and typically evolutionary dead-ends rather than an expansion of genetic viability.

Some would argue the accumulation of genetic load will eventually doom humanity.

If there are any post-Neo-Darwinists I'm willing to listen if someone has some new theories to rationalize evolution.
Sandwalk: Genetic Load, Neutral Theory, and Junk DNA
 
Old 03-22-2013, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,432 posts, read 28,289,218 times
Reputation: 29020
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
Suzy, that is simply mis-information.
Positive change more often if not always must include inter-dependent characteristics developed concurrently to be successful. There are no viable examples to illustrate this principle.

A single positive change such as a hardened beak on a woodpecker (<- a common example) without the structural support to protect it's brain would result in the brain becoming jelly given the force and speed in which a woodpecker hammers it's beak against wood.

Yes, all species including humans accumulate genetic load over time - an accumulation of negative mutations.

When you say divergence of species, I believe you mean sub-speciation in which different sub-species with a smaller genetic pool which may no longer interbreed with each other are descended from a shared primary species which includes the superset of genetic material to include both genetic subsets.

This is not forward progression, this is backwards regression.
No, dear heart, not all accumulated mutations are negative. That makes no sense. Negative mutations will not accumulate. They tend to kill the organism in which they accumulate. That removes them from the gene pool.

See here for use of the mutation rate to estimate when divergences happened.

http://www.life.illinois.edu/ib/372/...ation_rate.pdf

The number of mutations per generation can be counted. All you have to do is look at parents and their offspring and count the differences.
 
Old 03-22-2013, 11:18 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,218 posts, read 6,800,048 times
Reputation: 2034
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm1964 View Post
Neo-Darwinism is not feasible.
Plain and simple.

The number of positive mutations that would have to occur in concert is mathematically implausible by itself.
When you add in the number of negative mutations which occur for each positive mutation it becomes mathematically impossible on a scale to have any significant impact.

The only thing that has been shown is variation within species and subspeciation which is a contraction of genetic viability and typically evolutionary dead-ends rather than an expansion of genetic viability.

Some would argue the accumulation of genetic load will eventually doom humanity.

If there are any post-Neo-Darwinists I'm willing to listen if someone has some new theories to rationalize evolution.
There are no other explanations for the life on planet simply. The Earth is billions of years old and has undergone massive changes and wide scale extinction events. If there was no evolution there would be no life on this planet except for extremophilic bacteria as it would all been killed off.

I am certainly open for scientific explanations of the biodiversity we have on this planet outside of evolution.
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