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View Poll Results: Should Christian business owners who refuse to support gay marriage be shut down by the government?
Yes 16 13.11%
No 106 86.89%
Voters: 122. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-18-2013, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,321,515 times
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Aren't there enough businesses around that one can avoid the non-gay friendly ones ?
And how do they know you're gay unless you go out of your way to make it known ?

Forcing acceptance through government laws is NOT going to give you the blanket acceptance you think.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,924 posts, read 14,111,175 times
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Those who have rights, have rights.
Those who do not, need permission (license).
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:13 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,673,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KS_Referee View Post
An owner of ANY business ought to be able to discriminate against ANY person or group for whatever reason they want. The Constitution does NOT restrict what individuals (including business owners) can do... it DOES restrict what government can do. Equal protection as written in the Constitution was meant ONLY to require government not discriminate.

I want you to think about a 15 year old kid going around mowing yards for pay. Should the government FORCE that kid to accept anyone's yard mowing as a job? Can that kid not decide, for whatever reason, that they don't want to mow someone's yard. Should that property owner be able to sue in order to force them to provide the SAME service the kid provides to another property owner? Would it matter if the kid didn't like Australians, Canadians, Mexicans, Blacks, Asians, Indians, muslims, Jews, Christians, Mormons, Hindus, Atheists, White Supremacists, Black Supremacists, Lesbians, Homosexuals, Transvestites, cross dressers, pedophiles, handicapped people, elderly folks, 20 somethings, Chevy owners, Ford owners, Toyota owners, truck drivers, motorcyclists, or ANY other group? Just because the kid doesn't like them, and therefore does not want to do business with them, how are the members of that group harmed? Is it a criminal action for that kid to decide, "I don't want to mow THEIR yard because they are (insert politically correct and or protected group here)."

Can the government now dictate that we each have a certain quantity of friends of different races, genders, religions, etc. or they will fine us for discriminating against someone else... a group of people?

Do you think the Phelps Law Offices (all related to Fred Phelps of Topeka) can be forced to accept Homosexual or Lesbian legal clients? I dare say there is no way they can be, yet that is EXACTLY what some would seek to do. No LEGAL court can lawfully compel them to provide their labor to anyone else.

If I establish a business on MY property... property I paid for and own, who in their right mind thinks themselves able to dictate whom I must allow upon my property for ANY reason? What if my business is in my home? What if I run a cake shop... a bakery out of my home? Do you think you have the right to dictate whom I must allow in my home? Why would another building upon property I own be ANY different? What if I had a farm and sold milk and eggs off my farm? Can you dictate whom I must allow on my land, then dictate I sell them my milk and eggs?

Statist people, especially of the politically correct variety have a very SELFISH and IMPOSING view of what rights are.

You have no RIGHT to the products or services I sell UNLESS we come to a MUTUALLY agreed upon set of terms for the sale of the product or service. If I find you objectionable, for WHATEVER reason, the terms will no longer be acceptable for me and we will never mutually agree.

My property rights trump your desire to enter into a mutual agreement because it is MY property.

I saw an article where the owner of a coffee shop told a police officer to leave, refusing to serve a cop coffee and donuts because he was a cop, and we know this would be a federal felony if cops had their way. It was a PUBLIC business, yet the owner told the man to leave. One lady who witnessed it said she was offended by the actions of the owner, yet it was his RIGHT as a property owner. Even that cop's authority did not trump the property rights of that business owner. He had to leave or face criminal trespass charges and maybe even a civil lawsuit.

Yet we are to believe a Christian has no right to control whom they allow on their property, regardless of the reason simply because it would hurt the feelings of a homosexual, a lesbian or a member of ANY other protected group?


In Dearboristan (Dearborn Michigan), muslims regularly attack, assault and run off Christians from their annual islamofest. They are requiring Americans communicate in Arabic to the students and their parents while enrolled in an American school, in the United States, in Dearborn Michigan. You think I'm kidding, right? DEARBORNISTAN: Muslims throw rocks, garbage, and concrete at Christians | BARE NAKED ISLAM
Israeli Flags Now Illegal in Dearbornistan
Dearbornistan: Muslim-Dominated School District Must Now Communicate in Arabic After Legal Action


Yet some of you people still insist that Christians sell their goods and services to people whose behavior Christians consider a sin against GOD's will?

I have an idea... how about those that think Christians should be required to sell their souls go into a muslim run business dressed like a flaming gay, wearing a cross and a Star of David, then IF they live through it, come tell me how evil Christians are for simply refusing them service.

You have no lawful right to access my property unless "I" permit it as the property owner. You have no right to my goods or services (which are MY property) on my property unless "I" permit it as the property owner. The ONLY public goods or services which cannot be denied (per the Constitution) are those that are paid for with confiscated tax dollars. That means the government cannot discriminate. It does NOT mean an individual, a property owner cannot discriminate. Any law to the contrary is a law that invokes slavery upon the property owner.

I, even as an adult, cannot lawfully be compelled by a court order to mow the yard of someone whom I don't want to service regardless of their protected status. Any attempt to do so would require the government to say they OWN me, and therefore can dictate my labor to whomever it chooses... but I am a free man. I own my labor. I own what my labor produces. Therefore I cannot lawfully (in the eyes of GOD, which is where I derive my inalienable rights) be compelled to provide that labor to another if I choose against it... if I discriminate against them. So why would a court have ANY legal standing to compel me in my labor to bake a cake, sell a widget, or provide legal services to anyone I choose not to? Does the court own me? Does a court own my labor or the product of my labor? Can 99% of the people vote to require I provide my labor to another against my will? I thought the Constitution outlawed slavery.

I know the homosexuals and lesbians will start attacking me for my freedom to refuse them products or services, my property from my labor. Think about it before you start attacking me.



Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.



The Constitution does NOT give the government the authority to determine whom an individual must associate with. It does NOT give the government the authority to compel an individual to sell their private property to another individual.

If you think I'm wrong, show me where the US Constitution (or even the Constitution of ANY State) is authorized to determine whom an individual must associate with or to compel an individual to sell their private property to another individual.
A good post that I fully concur with in principle.

I just wish we could keep the idea of "God's will" out of the debate, as it muddies the water so unnecessarily. The notion of "gay" marriage is stark raving madness on its face, wholly independently from any religious devotion or conviction.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Pacific NW
9,437 posts, read 7,350,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
Let's turn it around: do you conservatives believe that the government should have the right to shut down a gay florist for refusing to serve a heterosexual Christian couple?
No, but that's the difference between Conservatives and Liberals. Conservatives don't think government is the solution to every problem.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:28 AM
 
Location: None of your business
5,466 posts, read 4,413,288 times
Reputation: 1179
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff View Post
Here we go again-- People need to understand what a public accommodation is.

If you operate a restaurant open to the general public, you must serve the general public in an non-discriminatory manner. You cannot refuse to serve blacks, the disabled, Jews, gays or any other minority group if you are "open to the public" regardless of your belief system. (And if you are a business owner with half a brain, why would you?)

So if you want to not serve people who offend your Christian values, don't open a business that is provides public accommodation.
So how does the restauranteur know they are gay. Do they wear signs, do they make out at the table.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:30 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,673,490 times
Reputation: 13891
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
freedom means that I have the right to my religion even if I have a public accommodation. If you were truly interested in freedom you would support religious rights not gay "rights"

gay "rights" = bigotry against religious people.
But it is so much more than that.

The indoctrination that is part of today's public school curricula is a frontal assault on behavioral sensibility and on our most fundamental and cherished freedom, the freedom of independent thought. This movement, totally apart from religion, is the ugliest attack on American values in our nation's history.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
77,772 posts, read 104,433,328 times
Reputation: 49248
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
The gay marriage fight is almost over, and conservatives have not only lost but lost big. Same sex marriage will soon be a reality in America. The fight isn't over though.

The next culture war is certain to be whether traditional Christians can own businesses and if so, can they run their business by those values. For instance, could a Christian photographer refuse to photograph a gay wedding? Can a Christian bakery refuse to bake a gay wedding cake? Most people would probably say they could not, and that if somebody is going to own a business, they should support same sex marriage. A photographer refusing to photograph a gay wedding is the same as a 'No Blacks Allowed' cafeteria.

There is the position though that a business-owner of a private business should be able to run their business the way they choose and serve the customers of their choice and refuse the customers of their choice. The free market should then decide who stays in business and who closes. This is the less popular position.

Should business owners be forced to support same sex marriage or be shut down by the government? Please refrain from name-calling and stereotyping and discuss this issue.
Whether we approve or not, private business is just that, private and the business owner can say or do what he/she wants. We have the right to boycott if we so choose. I personally would not work for a company that boycotted gays, but I do not think there is any evidence to support the government should be allowed to choose who a company will do business with. Not filming a gay wedding, bTW, is very different than saying "no blacks allowed"
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:14 AM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
6,414 posts, read 10,470,913 times
Reputation: 4305
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
wrong threats to use guns on gay terrorists (those who never engaged in homosexual behavior but want to force religious people to violate their religions in the name of gayisim are also gay terrorists) who want to destroy Jews and Judaism.



Jews who don't trample on their religion will give up their lives for Judaism, Jews even kept the Torah even in Auschwitz (which the gays help put us in). and if we have the ability to kill the persecutor first we will do so.


If you don't like that than stop pushing Soviet like laws on Jews. better every single gay terrorist is killed than one person be forced to violate their religion in the name of gayisim.

gay "rights" = antisemitism
Crazy, crazy, crazy, scary too. Ideas and thoughts like these are why we have anti discrimination laws. You advocate the discrimination and extermination of gay people. Do you not know that gays were also put in the gas chambers in Germany, that they were forced to wear pink triangles and lived in fear of being turned in. Does that not sound like what the jews also went through.

A private business can do what ever they want, discriminate against anyone they want, deny service to anyone they want, black, jew, white or gay or, get this even straight people or religious ones. But if the business is open to the public, you are not allowed to just discriminate against anyone or any group of people and if it was allowed, then why not just bring back or eliminate laws against discriminating against service to black people, or disabled, or the Irish or Christians or even, Oh my, Jews. See, discrimination being allowed for any group, gay, straight, black, white, Asian or what ever opens up discrimination against all of us for any reason. That is not the USA that I know or love, it is based on equality and freedom and those cannot be jeopardized for those few who want to force their beliefs on all of the people in this country. Do not like black people, Irish, Jews or gays, open up a private business and select your clientele. That is how the law works and the reason it is a law. To protect me from you and you from me. It would be so much easier if we all treated everyone as we would want to be treated and not be biased and judge-mental, but it is not the case, so we need these laws to govern us all.
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,082 posts, read 14,290,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Aren't there enough businesses around that one can avoid the non-gay friendly ones ?
And how do they know you're gay unless you go out of your way to make it known ?

Forcing acceptance through government laws is NOT going to give you the blanket acceptance you think.
Say you live in a small town. There is one clinic-ER which is private. The owner doesn't want to treat Christians. You OK with that?
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,321,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Say you live in a small town. There is one clinic-ER which is private. The owner doesn't want to treat Christians. You OK with that?
Then you go to the county health clinic.
Your straw man argument doesn't hold because America is not like that and neither is my small town.
And I do live in a small town and there is a county health clinic open Mon-Fri 9-5.

And I went there when no local doctor would see me for a TB test I needed for work because I wasn't "one of their patients" even though I was paying cash. A 5 minute or less test and they refused to see me.
I called 4 local doctors and ended up at the county health clinic to get that done.

It's not just religion my friend.
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