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There are very few things a business should be forced to do, and support same sex marriage is definitely not one of them.
I look forward to the day when we have no prejudices and accept everyone regardless of color, religion,sexual orientation or however different we all are. Unfortunately that day will never come in my lifetime, there will always be prejudice among us. But fortunately most of us are evolving with the times. I'm hopeful our kids and their kids will wipe out prejudice because it's a hateful thing.
An owner of ANY business ought to be able to discriminate against ANY person or group for whatever reason they want. The Constitution does NOT restrict what individuals (including business owners) can do... it DOES restrict what government can do. Equal protection as written in the Constitution was meant ONLY to require government not discriminate.
I want you to think about a 15 year old kid going around mowing yards for pay. Should the government FORCE that kid to accept anyone's yard mowing as a job? Can that kid not decide, for whatever reason, that they don't want to mow someone's yard. Should that property owner be able to sue in order to force them to provide the SAME service the kid provides to another property owner? Would it matter if the kid didn't like Australians, Canadians, Mexicans, Blacks, Asians, Indians, muslims, Jews, Christians, Mormons, Hindus, Atheists, White Supremacists, Black Supremacists, Lesbians, Homosexuals, Transvestites, cross dressers, pedophiles, handicapped people, elderly folks, 20 somethings, Chevy owners, Ford owners, Toyota owners, truck drivers, motorcyclists, or ANY other group? Just because the kid doesn't like them, and therefore does not want to do business with them, how are the members of that group harmed? Is it a criminal action for that kid to decide, "I don't want to mow THEIR yard because they are (insert politically correct and or protected group here)."
Can the government now dictate that we each have a certain quantity of friends of different races, genders, religions, etc. or they will fine us for discriminating against someone else... a group of people?
Do you think the Phelps Law Offices (all related to Fred Phelps of Topeka) can be forced to accept Homosexual or Lesbian legal clients? I dare say there is no way they can be, yet that is EXACTLY what some would seek to do. No LEGAL court can lawfully compel them to provide their labor to anyone else.
If I establish a business on MY property... property I paid for and own, who in their right mind thinks themselves able to dictate whom I must allow upon my property for ANY reason? What if my business is in my home? What if I run a cake shop... a bakery out of my home? Do you think you have the right to dictate whom I must allow in my home? Why would another building upon property I own be ANY different? What if I had a farm and sold milk and eggs off my farm? Can you dictate whom I must allow on my land, then dictate I sell them my milk and eggs?
Statist people, especially of the politically correct variety have a very SELFISH and IMPOSING view of what rights are.
You have no RIGHT to the products or services I sell UNLESS we come to a MUTUALLY agreed upon set of terms for the sale of the product or service. If I find you objectionable, for WHATEVER reason, the terms will no longer be acceptable for me and we will never mutually agree.
My property rights trump your desire to enter into a mutual agreement because it is MY property.
I saw an article where the owner of a coffee shop told a police officer to leave, refusing to serve a cop coffee and donuts because he was a cop, and we know this would be a federal felony if cops had their way. It was a PUBLIC business, yet the owner told the man to leave. One lady who witnessed it said she was offended by the actions of the owner, yet it was his RIGHT as a property owner. Even that cop's authority did not trump the property rights of that business owner. He had to leave or face criminal trespass charges and maybe even a civil lawsuit.
Yet we are to believe a Christian has no right to control whom they allow on their property, regardless of the reason simply because it would hurt the feelings of a homosexual, a lesbian or a member of ANY other protected group?
Yet some of you people still insist that Christians sell their goods and services to people whose behavior Christians consider a sin against GOD's will?
I have an idea... how about those that think Christians should be required to sell their souls go into a muslim run business dressed like a flaming gay, wearing a cross and a Star of David, then IF they live through it, come tell me how evil Christians are for simply refusing them service.
You have no lawful right to access my property unless "I" permit it as the property owner. You have no right to my goods or services (which are MY property) on my property unless "I" permit it as the property owner. The ONLY public goods or services which cannot be denied (per the Constitution) are those that are paid for with confiscated tax dollars. That means the government cannot discriminate. It does NOT mean an individual, a property owner cannot discriminate. Any law to the contrary is a law that invokes slavery upon the property owner.
I, even as an adult, cannot lawfully be compelled by a court order to mow the yard of someone whom I don't want to service regardless of their protected status. Any attempt to do so would require the government to say they OWN me, and therefore can dictate my labor to whomever it chooses... but I am a free man. I own my labor. I own what my labor produces. Therefore I cannot lawfully (in the eyes of GOD, which is where I derive my inalienable rights) be compelled to provide that labor to another if I choose against it... if I discriminate against them. So why would a court have ANY legal standing to compel me in my labor to bake a cake, sell a widget, or provide legal services to anyone I choose not to? Does the court own me? Does a court own my labor or the product of my labor? Can 99% of the people vote to require I provide my labor to another against my will? I thought the Constitution outlawed slavery.
I know the homosexuals and lesbians will start attacking me for my freedom to refuse them products or services, my property from my labor. Think about it before you start attacking me.
Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
The Constitution does NOT give the government the authority to determine whom an individual must associate with. It does NOT give the government the authority to compel an individual to sell their private property to another individual.
If you think I'm wrong, show me where the US Constitution (or even the Constitution of ANY State) is authorized to determine whom an individual must associate with or to compel an individual to sell their private property to another individual.
The next culture war is certain to be whether traditional Christians can own businesses and if so, can they run their business by those values.
Yep.
In fact Christian business owners SHOULD be running their businesses with Christ's values. The greatest being we should love one another as He loved us.
Unless Christian business owners think Jesus walked around the wedding in Cana asking if people wanting a glass of His wine (the really good stuff - the wine He made from water) were straight or gay and refused to serve wine to the people with the "wrong" answer. In which case those business owners probably shouldn't be calling themselves Christians.
An owner of ANY business ought to be able to discriminate against ANY person or group for whatever reason they want. The Constitution does NOT restrict what individuals (including business owners) can do... it DOES restrict what government can do. Equal protection as written in the Constitution was meant ONLY to require government not discriminate.
I want you to think about a 15 year old kid going around mowing yards for pay. Should the government FORCE that kid to accept anyone's yard mowing as a job? Can that kid not decide, for whatever reason, that they don't want to mow someone's yard. Should that property owner be able to sue in order to force them to provide the SAME service the kid provides to another property owner? Would it matter if the kid didn't like Australians, Canadians, Mexicans, Blacks, Asians, Indians, muslims, Jews, Christians, Mormons, Hindus, Atheists, White Supremacists, Black Supremacists, Lesbians, Homosexuals, Transvestites, cross dressers, pedophiles, handicapped people, elderly folks, 20 somethings, Chevy owners, Ford owners, Toyota owners, truck drivers, motorcyclists, or ANY other group? Just because the kid doesn't like them, and therefore does not want to do business with them, how are the members of that group harmed? Is it a criminal action for that kid to decide, "I don't want to mow THEIR yard because they are (insert politically correct and or protected group here)."
Can the government now dictate that we each have a certain quantity of friends of different races, genders, religions, etc. or they will fine us for discriminating against someone else... a group of people?
Do you think the Phelps Law Offices (all related to Fred Phelps of Topeka) can be forced to accept Homosexual or Lesbian legal clients? I dare say there is no way they can be, yet that is EXACTLY what some would seek to do. No LEGAL court can lawfully compel them to provide their labor to anyone else.
If I establish a business on MY property... property I paid for and own, who in their right mind thinks themselves able to dictate whom I must allow upon my property for ANY reason? What if my business is in my home? What if I run a cake shop... a bakery out of my home? Do you think you have the right to dictate whom I must allow in my home? Why would another building upon property I own be ANY different? What if I had a farm and sold milk and eggs off my farm? Can you dictate whom I must allow on my land, then dictate I sell them my milk and eggs?
Statist people, especially of the politically correct variety have a very SELFISH and IMPOSING view of what rights are.
You have no RIGHT to the products or services I sell UNLESS we come to a MUTUALLY agreed upon set of terms for the sale of the product or service. If I find you objectionable, for WHATEVER reason, the terms will no longer be acceptable for me and we will never mutually agree.
My property rights trump your desire to enter into a mutual agreement because it is MY property.
I saw an article where the owner of a coffee shop told a police officer to leave, refusing to serve a cop coffee and donuts because he was a cop, and we know this would be a federal felony if cops had their way. It was a PUBLIC business, yet the owner told the man to leave. One lady who witnessed it said she was offended by the actions of the owner, yet it was his RIGHT as a property owner. Even that cop's authority did not trump the property rights of that business owner. He had to leave or face criminal trespass charges and maybe even a civil lawsuit.
Yet we are to believe a Christian has no right to control whom they allow on their property, regardless of the reason simply because it would hurt the feelings of a homosexual, a lesbian or a member of ANY other protected group?
Yet some of you people still insist that Christians sell their goods and services to people whose behavior Christians consider a sin against GOD's will?
I have an idea... how about those that think Christians should be required to sell their souls go into a muslim run business dressed like a flaming gay, wearing a cross and a Star of David, then IF they live through it, come tell me how evil Christians are for simply refusing them service.
You have no lawful right to access my property unless "I" permit it as the property owner. You have no right to my goods or services (which are MY property) on my property unless "I" permit it as the property owner. The ONLY public goods or services which cannot be denied (per the Constitution) are those that are paid for with confiscated tax dollars. That means the government cannot discriminate. It does NOT mean an individual, a property owner cannot discriminate. Any law to the contrary is a law that invokes slavery upon the property owner.
I, even as an adult, cannot lawfully be compelled by a court order to mow the yard of someone whom I don't want to service regardless of their protected status. Any attempt to do so would require the government to say they OWN me, and therefore can dictate my labor to whomever it chooses... but I am a free man. I own my labor. I own what my labor produces. Therefore I cannot lawfully (in the eyes of GOD, which is where I derive my inalienable rights) be compelled to provide that labor to another if I choose against it... if I discriminate against them. So why would a court have ANY legal standing to compel me in my labor to bake a cake, sell a widget, or provide legal services to anyone I choose not to? Does the court own me? Does a court own my labor or the product of my labor? Can 99% of the people vote to require I provide my labor to another against my will? I thought the Constitution outlawed slavery.
I know the homosexuals and lesbians will start attacking me for my freedom to refuse them products or services, my property from my labor. Think about it before you start attacking me.
Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
The Constitution does NOT give the government the authority to determine whom an individual must associate with. It does NOT give the government the authority to compel an individual to sell their private property to another individual.
If you think I'm wrong, show me where the US Constitution (or even the Constitution of ANY State) is authorized to determine whom an individual must associate with or to compel an individual to sell their private property to another individual.
You seem to be confusing private business with public business. A gardener is a private business, an eatery or clothing store etc is not, they are public. You start a business on your property, it is private. Open a business that caters to the public, you cannot discriminate. Big difference between the two. I run a private business, I can refuse my services to any one. But if I ran a book store or something along that line that is open to the public, I cannot refuse them service based on race, age etc.
I'm a Christian with somewhat libertarian views. I support marriage equality.
However, this rising anti-Christian sentiment is disturbing. OP "...Christians be allowed to own businesses?" is going to be the next debate? Are you serious? This has to be the most radically left, looniest post since that guy was on here saying middle class white people should buy iPhones for every black person!
I'm a Christian with somewhat libertarian views. I support marriage equality.
However, this rising anti-Christian sentiment is disturbing. OP "...Christians be allowed to own businesses?" is going to be the next debate? Are you serious? This has to be the most radically left, looniest post since that guy was on here saying middle class white people should buy iPhones for every black person!
You got bchris' political persuasion completely backwards. Read it again. The person you are railing against is a conservative Christian, not a liberal. He is proposing an absurd hypothetical and trying to justify it by spreading fear.
You seem to be confusing private business with public business. A gardener is a private business, an eatery or clothing store etc is not, they are public. You start a business on your property, it is private. Open a business that caters to the public, you cannot discriminate. Big difference between the two. I run a private business, I can refuse my services to any one. But if I ran a book store or something along that line that is open to the public, I cannot refuse them service based on race, age etc.
I'm going to assume that you mean if I allow one person to come onto my property and buy property (either goods or services) that I am offering to sell, I must allow ANYONE. When did I give up my property rights simply because I decided to sell a good or service?
What government has constitutional authority to COMPEL me to sell my goods or services to another individual? If they can compel this, can they also compel the price that I must agree to? If I am a preacher, can the government compel me to provide my service (marriage) to a same sex couple? If I am a preacher, can the government compel me to provide my service (marriage) to someone wanting to marry a sheep? If I am a preacher, can the government compel me to provide my service (marriage) to eight people wanting to marry each other?
Where does any government get this authority to compel my labor?
Edited to add:
I submit that every privately owned (even if owned as shares of a corporation) business that is NOT funded by tax dollars is a PRIVATE business. The ONLY public goods and services are things like roads, courts, the DMV, schools, etc. Things that get tax payer funding are PUBLIC, and they are required to not discriminate. Otherwise you could dictate that the 15 year old kid be required to mow the lawns of groups of people he doesn't like. You could compel his labor. You would make him a slave.
Last edited by KS_Referee; 03-28-2013 at 09:28 PM..
The entire point of them forcing the destruction of the term marriage and redefine is was to lead to the next step. Getting to others like churches and businesses. You're right, its not over sadly. Some of us knew all along it wasnt about equal rights.
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