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Old 04-08-2013, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Fredericktown,Ohio
6,912 posts, read 4,405,312 times
Reputation: 2746

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
This is not democracy, even if Detroit is poorly-run. The people get the government that they deserve.
I agree, let democracy triumph. Let the ignorant unwashed masses keep electing the same people that have lead their city into becoming a cess pool. Let them keep voting and wallowing around in their own stench. As someone once wrote " In a democracy you do not always get what you want but you always get what you deserve". Is that politically correct or do I need sensitivity training?
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,676,394 times
Reputation: 14582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
So it's okay for a state's governor to come in an appoint someone to run a city? If this happened with a Democratic governor pushing aside a Republican mayor for his own hand-picked "emergency manager," Rush Limbaugh's hair would be on fire.

This is not democracy, even if Detroit is poorly-run. The people get the government that they deserve.
Unfortunately, what happens in Detroit impacts more than just the people who voted them into office. It impacts those who work there, those who use services in the city, and those who live near the city.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Fredericktown,Ohio
6,912 posts, read 4,405,312 times
Reputation: 2746
I am white and wish I could get people to throw Oreo cookies at me, there is not too many things better then Oreo cookies dunked in a glass of milk. Oh wait minute a dark colored object with a white middle dunked into a white liquid that could be racist. Do I need sensitivity training?
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:59 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 5,402,223 times
Reputation: 2396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Unfortunately, what happens in Detroit impacts more than just the people who voted them into office. It impacts those who work there, those who use services in the city, and those who live near the city.
You've just made a great case for regional unification of government. Does Wayne County really need to be split into more than three dozen separate municipalities? Without knowing much about the area (but considering that we have had similar discussions here in Northeast Ohio), I can say that I doubt it. You're right, what happens in Detroit indeed affects the entire metropolitan area, but people in that region have made a conscious decision to live separately from one another, and there are advantages, as well as disadvantages to such an arrangement. If you have chosen not to live in Detroit, you cannot really complain that your voice in how the city is run is and should be limited.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:03 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
8,446 posts, read 12,417,436 times
Reputation: 8028
HMMM??? I like Oreo's. Especially the double stuff kind.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,676,394 times
Reputation: 14582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
You've just made a great case for regional unification of government. Does Wayne County really need to be split into more than three dozen separate municipalities? Without knowing much about the area (but considering that we have had similar discussions here in Northeast Ohio), I can say that I doubt it. You're right, what happens in Detroit indeed affects the entire metropolitan area, but people in that region have made a conscious decision to live separately from one another, and there are advantages, as well as disadvantages to such an arrangement. If you have chosen not to live in Detroit, you cannot really complain that your voice in how the city is run is and should be limited.
My point was that the state has every right to step in with an emergency manager because what happens in Detroit impacts many outside of Detroit. It is, however, unfortuante that they don't allow people to vote who work in the city. I never understood how they could collect taxes from them but not let them vote on either how much those taxes are or how they are spent. Seems like taxation without representation to me.

Living in the burbs, I'm a bit worried. If Detroit goes down, who supplies our water and handles our sewage? We buy those services from Detroit. While we're not really dependent on Detroit for much else, if Detroit goes down, we'll be dealing with overflow crime as Detroit settles into anarchy.

Sadly there have been so many good plans that the powers that be in Detroit shot down. They proposed a monorail that would bring people in from the north east and west sides of Detroit and help with the parking situation. We got a monorail that goes around in circles once you manage to get to downtown and find parking. For years, there was an invisible wall around Detroit with city busses not coming close enough to the border for people to catch a bus to the subburbs. The idea was to force the subburban bus lines to cross the border and charge them for doing so. Instead, it just isolated everyone. When I was in college, I wanted to take the bus to campus but the safest route was to connect with the buses outside the city to go north and then go east back into the city. I couldn't do it. The bus west to where I'd need to pick up the non city bus made it's last stop a mile from the border. The first stop I could pick back up in the city, after going north, was, you guessed it, a mile into the city. I doubt that was a coincidence.

There are beautiful mini mansions that have fallen into decay in the city because individuals can't buy them. They're zoned to be sold in blocks because they want businesses moving in there. You'd need a group of investors to buy a block. While a hop skip and a jump on the other side of downtown, only one out of three homes is still standing and some of the ones that are standing aren't standing well. Why not buldoze the remaining houses there and build businesses and allow those grand old homes to be purchased by families???

Whatever happened to the green zone porposal? Is that one still under consideration?

When I lived in the city, the libraries were closed for lack of 11million dollars while the people mover had 13 million a year pumped into it to keep it running. (Not only does it just go around in circles, it loses money).

At one time a subway system was proposed building off of the existing steam tunnels. I don't know how feasible that one was but when I visited Washington DC, I was impressed by how easily you could get around on the subway.

When I was a kid, Detroit is where we went for recreation. I remember ice skating and tobaggoning in the now closed winter recreation area. I remember visiting my grandmother and her taking us to the now closed pools. I remember her taking us to the library (closed). I remember going to the archery range and learning how to shoot a bow (closed). Gee, give kids nothing to do during the summer when they're off and then wonder why they join gangs and roam the streets.... The city I'm in keeps trying to close the pools and we keep fighting back because if they take away good recreational opportunities for kids, we'll end up with gangs running the streets. I'm pleased to say most of the pools stayed open and they've spent some money putting in things like tennis courts and inline hockey courts (they double as either). You have to give kids things to do.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-09-2013 at 07:31 PM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
16,343 posts, read 16,466,012 times
Reputation: 12367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
I've read about this Emergency Manager nonsense going on in Michigan and...wow. Talk about one of the most undemocratic things I've ever seen happen in the United States.


YES....I totally agree, leave Detroitbabwe alone!

It is a Mad Max city.....totally failed, just cordon it off and erect barriers so nobody can leave!!!!!
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,639 posts, read 24,783,844 times
Reputation: 11318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
I have to agree with Jasper. After 30 years working in the financial field I switched over to the public sector and I'm now working with a very diverse workforce, and I have to say, for a white guy, it's like working in a minefield.

Every word, every action, even dress can be taken out of context by an "aggrieved" party. And as soon as a complaint is made you have to take sensitivity training, which is an incredible racket...I now understand why Sharpton and Jackson keep pushing their racist baloney, there's a lot of money to be made.

Even food can be a problem...someone brought in chocolate frosted yellow-cake cupcakes for a birthday, and you guessed it, sensitivity classes were mandated for everyone.
I call BS on your last paragraph.

There are thousands of people in the public sector who have no problem.
Perhaps it's you.
If it's such a minefield, perhaps you should reconsider leaving the finance field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
I don't know, and I refuse to take any more sensitivity classes.
Then you won't be in your job for long, mandatory is just that.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:52 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 5,402,223 times
Reputation: 2396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
My point was that the state has every right to step in with an emergency manager because what happens in Detroit impacts many outside of Detroit. It is, however, unfortuante that they don't allow people to vote who work in the city. I never understood how they could collect taxes from them but not let them vote on either how much those taxes are or how they are spent. Seems like taxation without representation to me.

Living in the burbs, I'm a bit worried. If Detroit goes down, who supplies our water and handles our sewage? We buy those services from Detroit. While we're not really dependent on Detroit for much else, if Detroit goes down, we'll be dealing with overflow crime as Detroit settles into anarchy.

Sadly there have been so many good plans that the powers that be in Detroit shot down. They proposed a monorail that would bring people in from the north east and west sides of Detroit and help with the parking situation. We got a monorail that goes around in circles once you manage to get to downtown and find parking. For years, there was an invisible wall around Detroit with city busses not coming close enough to the border for people to catch a bus to the subburbs. The idea was to force the subburban bus lines to cross the border and charge them for doing so. Instead, it just isolated everyone. When I was in college, I wanted to take the bus to campus but the safest route was to connect with the buses outside the city to go north and then go east back into the city. I couldn't do it. The bus west to where I'd need to pick up the non city bus made it's last stop a mile from the border. The first stop I could pick back up in the city, after going north, was, you guessed it, a mile into the city. I doubt that was a coincidence.

There are beautiful mini mansions that have fallen into decay in the city because individuals can't buy them. They're zoned to be sold in blocks because they want businesses moving in there. You'd need a group of investors to buy a block. While a hop skip and a jump on the other side of downtown, only one out of three homes is still standing and some of the ones that are standing aren't standing well. Why not buldoze the remaining houses there and build businesses and allow those grand old homes to be purchased by families???

Whatever happened to the green zone porposal? Is that one still under consideration?

When I lived in the city, the libraries were closed for lack of 11million dollars while the people mover had 13 million a year pumped into it to keep it running. (Not only does it just go around in circles, it loses money).

At one time a subway system was proposed building off of the existing steam tunnels. I don't know how feasible that one was but when I visited Washington DC, I was impressed by how easily you could get around on the subway.

When I was a kid, Detroit is where we went for recreation. I remember ice skating and tobaggoning in the now closed winter recreation area. I remember visiting my grandmother and her taking us to the now closed pools. I remember her taking us to the library (closed). I remember going to the archery range and learning how to shoot a bow (closed). Gee, give kids nothing to do during the summer when they're off and then wonder why they join gangs and roam the streets.... The city I'm in keeps trying to close the pools and we keep fighting back because if they take away good recreational opportunities for kids, we'll end up with gangs running the streets. I'm pleased to say most of the pools stayed open and they've spent some money putting in things like tennis courts and inline hockey courts (they double as either). You have to give kids things to do.
We have the same situation in Ohio where municipalities are allowed to collect a small income tax from employees that work in the city but live elsewhere. I've always opposed this based on the same argument that you're making that it's taxation without representation, so I empathize with you there.

That being said, I still don't buy the argument that non-residents of one city should have any kind of a significant say over how the residents of another city make decisions about how they choose to govern their own city. The citizens of Detroit have an elected mayor and city council that they have chosen to make decisions for them. The idea that the governor can come in and put into place his own hand-picked czar to completely nullify the duly-elected local government is, indeed, not democracy. If the tables were turned and an "emergency manager" were put into place to run you city, making decisions with which you disagreed, I am not sure how happy you would be, either. If you want to participate in the democratic decision making process regarding Detroit, become a resident (either by moving there or petitioning to have your municipality annexed).
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:49 PM
 
51,726 posts, read 41,660,095 times
Reputation: 32294
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjv View Post
You can add democracy to that list
This reminds me of a debutant crying unfair because daddy cut up her credit cards.

The emergency manager is completely legal and allowable under the state laws which were voted into place by democratically elected representatives.
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