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Old 04-22-2013, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,012,479 times
Reputation: 3954

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Quote:
Originally Posted by butkus51 View Post
.......without attacking the right's positions?
We argue to the level of our opposition.

 
Old 04-22-2013, 03:47 PM
 
3,436 posts, read 2,937,899 times
Reputation: 1787
Quote:
Originally Posted by butkus51 View Post
Oh but I do. The left does not. You're yet one more lefty doing exactly what I claimed. I make a case and back it up on it's merit. Here's an opportunity for you to show me you can do likewise. Pick an issue on the left that is diametrically opposed to the rights and defend it without attacking the left.
Back it up then. You haven't backed up anything you said. I have done so plenty times as well. You started a thread without facts, only to bash liberals. Practice what you preach. Pick an issue and YOU back it up with facts. If you wanted to have a grown-up conversation, you would have left the liberal bashing out the OP. You think I can't post links and quotes from right-wingers making hateful statements? You clearly have no intention on debating the issues. Clearly your intention is to bash liberals. If you approach situations the way you did in the OP, I can see why you have issues with people who do not share your views. Try taking a little personal responsibility for your actions.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 03:49 PM
 
3,436 posts, read 2,937,899 times
Reputation: 1787
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
Take stands based on morals LOL thanks for the laugh!
Okay OP, so what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander huh?
 
Old 04-22-2013, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Columbus, OH
3,038 posts, read 2,504,481 times
Reputation: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancat100 View Post
How about universal healthcare? That's a hot one.

Here are reasons it's a good idea, in no particular order:
1. Everyone needs health care at some point and will use it
2. It's only fair and just that everyone pay into it. No free-riders. In a universal, tax-supported system, this can happen.
3. There is a lot of waste and overlap in our current system including lots of money spent on advertising and marketing that would be better spent on care. One system eliminates the need for this.
4. Having one big nationwide system gives you economies of scale to negotiate better rates on drugs and medical services - saving lots of money.
5. In the countries that have universal systems, large majorities of their populations like it. That's not to say there's not room for improvement, but they would not want to switch to our system. I think this is important.
6. While its true that certain individuals of means do travel to the US for certain procedures, the aggregate results over the entire populations of those countries are superior to our aggregate results.
7. We already have the framework for such a system in place. Medicare. It's a matter of expanding it.
8. Obamacare is not a true universal system and doesn't go nearly far enough.

Okay. That's a start.
Here's the counter arguement.

1. Everyone needs health care at some point and will use western doctors. But people that don't want western doctors shouldn't be forced to participate just because of where they live.

2. It's only fair and just that people that use it pay into it. No free-riders. In a free-market system, this can happen.

3. Money spent on advertising and marketing informs the consumer of their options and allows information sharing among medical practioners. This is a vital service that benefits everyone.

4. Having one big nationwide free-market system gives you better care at cheaper prices.

5. In the countries that have free-market systems, large majorities of their populations like it. That's not to say there's not room for improvement, but they would not want to switch to our system. I think this is important.

6. While its true that certain individuals of means do travel to the free-market systems to recieve care a similar system here would grant access to everyone, including the poor.

7. We already have the framework for such a system in place. Just get the government out of healthcare.

8. Obamacare is not a true universal system and will only lead to worse care at higher costs.

And the first person that tells me the United States has a free-market system gets slapped. lols.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 03:51 PM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,574,432 times
Reputation: 13868
1. The college liberal: No real life experience, and beliefs based purely on what they seem to think is considered intellectual. Role models: Celebrities and Professors.

2. The Union Member: Lots of life experience, but have been convinced it is "us vs them" when it comes to their jobs. As such, they support whoever their union supports even when it is against their own good. Great examples of this is what happened with the auto workers union.

3. Some minority groups: Why do virtually all african americans vote democrat? It isn't in their best interest. What holds the black community down more than anything else is a poor education, which is being perpetuated by the teachers union (which controls the democratic party). It is a direct conflict with what they need, but they continue to vote the way they always have. It's just stupid.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 03:56 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
9,030 posts, read 10,417,025 times
Reputation: 5751
Here's a thing that's been floating around Facebook, and quite nicely tears down a number of popular strawmen without attacking anyone:

I don't want free healthcare; I want affordable healthcare.
I don't want money for nothing; I want the opportunity for a good job.
I don't expect every election to bring the result I want; I just want my vote to count.
I don't want business to be unprofitable; I want them out of the regulatory and political processes.
I don't want the wealthiest Americans to pay for everything; I want them to pay their fair share.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 03:56 PM
 
977 posts, read 760,520 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancat100 View Post
How about universal healthcare? That's a hot one.

Here are reasons it's a good idea, in no particular order:
1. Everyone needs health care at some point and will use it
2. It's only fair and just that everyone pay into it. No free-riders. In a universal, tax-supported system, this can happen.
3. There is a lot of waste and overlap in our current system including lots of money spent on advertising and marketing that would be better spent on care. One system eliminates the need for this.
4. Having one big nationwide system gives you economies of scale to negotiate better rates on drugs and medical services - saving lots of money.
5. In the countries that have universal systems, large majorities of their populations like it. That's not to say there's not room for improvement, but they would not want to switch to our system. I think this is important.
6. While its true that certain individuals of means do travel to the US for certain procedures, the aggregate results over the entire populations of those countries are superior to our aggregate results.
7. We already have the framework for such a system in place. Medicare. It's a matter of expanding it.
8. Obamacare is not a true universal system and doesn't go nearly far enough.

Okay. That's a start.
It does not keep costs down and those that access it will have to pay for it. I think there is a misconception that it will be free. Not only that, it has been backed up until at least 2015 because many states cannot get the exchanges set up. Had the plan capped what doctors charge, it may be viable. There are no such caps. So the savings that were purported to take place will not happen. Another problem is that whatever plan you purchase, it has to conform with Obamacare's standards of acceptability. Right now I pay for a high deductible plan to the tune of $200 a month for two people. It is bare bones. It will not be acceptable under Obamacare. So that means that I will either pay the increase out-of-pocket or take a subsidy to help pay for it. That is not choice. Then we have the 23 new taxes and other assorted 'fees' attached in the plan. The plan submitted to OMB originally was amended later to include costs not disclosed at first. And Sebelius double counting Medicare funds in an attempt to sell Congress on the viability of Obamacare said a lot also. There was and is much deception in this bill and we still do not know what is in it.

Bottom line is that it was poorly put together, not thought through properly, costs more than advetised and leaves people with less choice and inevitably higher costs.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 04:01 PM
 
977 posts, read 760,520 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
Here's a thing that's been floating around Facebook, and quite nicely tears down a number of popular strawmen without attacking anyone:

I don't want free healthcare; I want affordable healthcare.
I don't want money for nothing; I want the opportunity for a good job.
I don't expect every election to bring the result I want; I just want my vote to count.
I don't want business to be unprofitable; I want them out of the regulatory and political processes.
I don't want the wealthiest Americans to pay for everything; I want them to pay their fare share.
Of course it is an attack.

Obamacare is not affordable.
You create your own opportunity.
Your vote counts if you go and vote. Do not believe otherwise unless you have proof instead of suspicions.
Business is part of the regulatory process because it is their business being regulated. They should have a voice.
The top 10% pay 70% of all taxes. Fair is subjective. 70% is quite a large amount.


Now what do you think?
 
Old 04-22-2013, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
8,346 posts, read 7,014,256 times
Reputation: 2874
Quote:
Originally Posted by butkus51 View Post
.......without attacking the right's positions?

The right says lower taxes the left says "you don't care about others'.
The right says gun control does not work the left says "you want dead children'.
The right says work hard and strive to do better the left says "it takes a village" and "you didn't build that".
The right says character is important the left says "moral relativism and situational ethics".


That's the short list. It would be novel if for once the left actually could articulate why they believe what they believe without saying "b-b-b-but Bush". It would also be refreshing if they could make an argument based on the merits of their belief system without the nuance, dodge, ducking, obfuscating, straw man, demonizing or otherwise going after the right simply because we believe differently. For those on the left, for once try to say why what you believe is best for this nation has merit without attacking the right.
GO through my post history and point out anywhere I have ever done this.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 04:03 PM
 
977 posts, read 760,520 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinArmageddons View Post
GO through my post history and point out anywhere I have ever done this.
Do you have a guilty conscience? You do realize that the first post was to 'all'.
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